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Post by Baph on Sept 19, 2017 0:51:22 GMT -5
Judging by all his movie lists of late, I don't have many similar tastes with him, so his take on GoT being different from mine is not at all surprising. And I mean..........anyone who thinks season 5 was better than season 6? Jesus. That's a different kind of cat. I figure it's best to leave it alone after reading THAT Instead of glomming onto that one line out of a five paragraph argument and using it to dismiss the entire critique, why not address some of the actual points made? Even there, when I compared 5 and 6, I should have said more explicitly that the last few season have trailed off, and it seemed to accelerate in season 7. Rating season 5 vs season 6 has nothing to do with my overall premise or any of the specific trends I outlined. The point I intended to make was that once we got out ahead of the books you could tell. And I am not the only one to raise these points, even on this thread, and reviews for season 7 were the lowest overall of the entire series. There are some tell tale signs of shark jumping here. We're out of books to adapt. We're working without a net, on a massive budget, with producers' fingers in the pie, and I'm supposed to pretend it's not going to get lost in the lime lights like every other series since the dawn of time?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 9:07:57 GMT -5
I like that they are going the route that they are going. The show was built on dragging things out. Long, arduous plotlines that cannot be done justice with whimpering but artistic endings.
This whole thing is supposed to be epic as fuck.
Martin painted himself right into a corner because of how well he set up what is to be an epic conclusion. He set himself up to have an ending that he himself is not capable of writing and doing the justice to- that the readers are expecting. In book form he's going to be able to get away with a lot more of the dragging things out. But in a show that has run for as long as this one has, you have an audience that has been patiently waiting for a payoff for what, eight years?
So I'll be the first to say that I hope that Daenerys does not die. I don't want to have wasted 8 years hoping that this sexy Supernatural woman who went through hell on Earth to get to where she is, just ends up dying and not accomplishing her goal. I don't want to see Tyrion die either. Or Jon Snow.
I don't think it is also very fair to be trying to judge the endings with the beginning and the middle. The simple fact is that those different parts of the plot entail different manners of Storytelling.
So in a book you can detail how Daenerys flew from where she was to get to Jon Snow in a manner that makes it more believable than a simple scene change. You could go into detail about how the Lord of Light put the wind at the back of the dragons nearly doubling their travel speed. Is anyone really going to give a fuck about that aside as we're waiting for Daenerys to arrive and pick Jon's ass up? Was it worth the extra 5-10 minutes of CGI footage? Or would it simply be redundant to show that the Lord of light is on their side, because there's already a dude with a flaming Jesus sword fighting with them?
In the beginning and in the middle your job as the author is to really make people care about how your characters end up. At the end your job is to use your audience's attachment to the characters to elicit powerful emotional responses when things end for them.
I feel like the producers are doing a solid job eliciting those powerful emotional responses. When Daenerys showed up to save John I got goosebumps. Sure I joked to my wife that she got there really fast, but it's a minor thing.
The real issue here is that this ending is to be so epic that it's taking them two seasons to wrap it up. Martin set the tables so completely that there are a lot of threads to tie together, and they don't need to be perfectly wound like some kind of Immaculate French braid for me.
To me this show has always been about establishing characters and then showing at the end how all of their threads combined together to reach the conclusion that we are headed towards. If they need to leave certain minutia out in the name of time constraints and money, and the only expense paid is a bit of a loss on the seamless continuity side, I'm totally okay with it.
Also worth noting that it is impossible to craft an ending that is going to please the entire crowd. And if they pull some bullshit where everyone just fucking dies, this show will go from being the best show ever to being perhaps the biggest waste of time to ever occupy a time slot on premium channels.
If I get some artsy-fartsy ending, I'm going to be fucking pissed.
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Post by Baph on Sept 19, 2017 11:02:10 GMT -5
That's a valid response. My only reply would be that I don't think anybody wants artsy-fartsy: we want subversion of expectations and a total lack of plot armor, which is what we all fell in love with. Just keep doing what you've been doing and we're golden. Shock me, piss me off, do the opposite of what every show always fucking does . . . be REAL. Don't line the good guys up on the left, the bad guys up on the right, and make them fight until John and Danny are king and queen and Sam writes a Hobit's Holiday and it's the Lord of the Rings all over again which is exactly what R.R. set out NOT to do.
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Post by boboplata on Sept 19, 2017 11:38:49 GMT -5
a total lack of plot armor So much this. They could make it exciting without resulting to being subpar and predictable. The 9th and 10th episode of season 6 were both great because the build up was slow culminating in a grand battle. GRRM didn't screwed the readers. He screwed HBO who were expecting a finished product. They didn't got it and resulted in them trying to tie up loose end hapharzardly which is below's GRRM's standards. Imo. Which is in line with Tony's post.
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Post by PatSox on Sept 19, 2017 15:17:40 GMT -5
Judging by all his movie lists of late, I don't have many similar tastes with him, so his take on GoT being different from mine is not at all surprising. And I mean..........anyone who thinks season 5 was better than season 6? Jesus. That's a different kind of cat. I figure it's best to leave it alone after reading THAT Instead of glomming onto that one line out of a five paragraph argument and using it to dismiss the entire critique, why not address some of the actual points made? Even there, when I compared 5 and 6, I should have said more explicitly that the last few season have trailed off, and it seemed to accelerate in season 7. Rating season 5 vs season 6 has nothing to do with my overall premise or any of the specific trends I outlined. The point I intended to make was that once we got out ahead of the books you could tell. And I am not the only one to raise these points, even on this thread, and reviews for season 7 were the lowest overall of the entire series. There are some tell tale signs of shark jumping here. We're out of books to adapt. We're working without a net, on a massive budget, with producers' fingers in the pie, and I'm supposed to pretend it's not going to get lost in the lime lights like every other series since the dawn of time? Because we've already had this discussion while the season was happening. And right after it ended We're not going to change each other's minds, nor am I that interested in trying to do so. You feel how you feel. It's just a show. It's fine Edit: I will say this though, in regards to your plot armor argument with Tony. At some point, some of your characters HAVE to have it. You obviously can't kill all your interesting plot moving characters. Some have to make it. Plenty have already perished... - Ned Stark - Robb Stark - Cat Stark - Tywin Lannister - Robert Baratheon - Renly Baratheon - Stannis Baratheon - Joffrey Baratheon - Tommen Baratheon - Littlefinger - Kahl Drogo - Roose Bolton - Ramsay Bolton - Mance Rayder - Margery Tyrell - Olenna Tyrell - Elaria Sand - Oberyn Martell - Lyssa Aryn - Balon Greyjoy - Visarys Targeryan - Lord Commander Mormont And others who may not have had huge impact on the plot, but we were sad to see go, like.... - Hodor - Osha - Wun Wun - Baristan Selmy - Y'Gritte - Rickon - Maester Luwin - Maester Aemon - Summer - Shaggy Dog - Lady - Gray Wind - Viscerion - Thoros - Dickon (I mean come on, that name was awesome) All these motherfuckers have died, among a slew of others I didn't mention that were mostly bad dudes who had it coming. Many of them in the last two seasons. You can't tell me this show has gone easy on that sort of thing. I mean yeah, Tyrion and Jon and Dany and Jaime and Arya and Sansa and Cersei and Brienne and The Hound etc. They're all still around. But that's just because you wouldn't have a fucking story anymore if they weren't. You can't use big deaths as your only way of generating drama. That's why the Walking Dead sucks now. You have to rely on how interesting your characters how and how invested people have become in them. And for those that remain, that is what's happening And rest assured, some of those beloved ones still alive will NOT be by the end of next season. You can bank on that. But some will. To me it would feel contrived if they weren't
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 15:30:20 GMT -5
Hollywood never could get thier endings down. I'm damn near always let down.
Which is why I'm not surprised. Still looking forward to watching every second of it.
It's not like there is any more time for character and relationship development anyways. X amount of episodes, pack it full of battles, kill off all loose ends and let our Hero fuck his Aunt til the ends of time. As long as I find out what happened when Tyrion brought a honey comb and a jackass into a brothel, color me satisfied.
Meanwhile, where is Edmure? And who was that woman with the mask talking to Mormont in Quarth? Wonder if we ever get an answer to that...
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Post by PatSox on Sept 19, 2017 15:55:23 GMT -5
One other thing I will say is, I think in a few years we're going to look back and realize we may have taken this show for granted. What other show gets people talking and invested as this one? We're nitpicking the fuck out of it, but that's because it means so much to us, I guess
When you compare it to other shows, even the absolute best, none of them give you as much as this one does. The other great ones usually achieve that by being MUCH tighter focused on a few entertaining aspects. They set the bar lower and get there easier. GoT goes for the fucking gusto and has somehow maintained excellence even with the ridiculuously high bar it's set out for
I could see some people looking back and thinking, "Damn, I talked alot of shit about Game of Thrones last couple seasons, but I'd give my left nut to be able to relive that again, instead of watching (insert whatever current derivative and ultimately forgetable show on netflix or hulu and HBO or FX you may be watching at the time)
And again, there's been a lot of great shows. I've watched more than my fair share the last 5-10 years. Breaking Bad, The Leftovers, Black Sails, The Wire, Mad Men, Attack on Titan, Death Note, Narcos, Fargo, Mr. Robot, Boardwalk Empire, season one of True Detective, this last season of Twin Peaks, House of Cards etc. But they're all watch em and move on sort of shows. Great in the moment, but once the episodes are over, I'm not thinking about them or discussing them
GoT is a different animal. For MANY people too. But we tend to eventually always want to tear things down, complain, nitpick and throw out that fricken "jump the shark" line. Dexter!!!! Now THAT is a show that jumped the shark. I would argue that The Walking Dead and Sherlock have too. Game of Thrones though? I mean jeez, that feels a bit forced right now. And with time I think people will realize they were trying a little too hard to be edgy and out from the crowd and lament the fact that they may have hindered their own chance to enjoy it to the end, now that it's gone
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Post by boboplata on Sept 19, 2017 18:12:37 GMT -5
One other thing I will say is, I think in a few years we're going to look back and realize we may have taken this show for granted. What other show gets people talking and invested as this one? We're nitpicking the fuck out of it, but that's because it means so much to us, I guess When you compare it to other shows, even the absolute best, none of them give you as much as this one does. The other great ones usually achieve that by being MUCH tighter focused on a few entertaining aspects. They set the bar lower and get there easier. GoT goes for the fucking gusto and has somehow maintained excellence even with the ridiculuously high bar it's set out for I could see some people looking back and thinking, "Damn, I talked alot of shit about Game of Thrones last couple seasons, but I'd give my left nut to be able to relive that again, instead of watching (insert whatever current derivative and ultimately forgetable show on netflix or hulu and HBO or FX you may be watching at the time) And again, there's been a lot of great shows. I've watched more than my fair share the last 5-10 years. Breaking Bad, The Leftovers, Black Sails, The Wire, Mad Men, Attack on Titan, Death Note, Narcos, Fargo, Mr. Robot, Boardwalk Empire, season one of True Detective, this last season of Twin Peaks, House of Cards etc. But they're all watch em and move on sort of shows. Great in the moment, but once the episodes are over, I'm not thinking about them or discussing them GoT is a different animal. For MANY people too. But we tend to eventually always want to tear things down, complain, nitpick and throw out that fricken "jump the shark" line. Dexter!!!! Now THAT is a show that jumped the shark. I would argue that The Walking Dead and Sherlock have too. Game of Thrones though? I mean jeez, that feels a bit forced right now. And with time I think people will realize they were trying a little too hard to be edgy and out from the crowd and lament the fact that they may have hindered their own chance to enjoy it to the end, now that it's gone Jesus christ. We still like the show. More than any other shows currently out there. I think I can speak for most if not all of us. Legit criticisms are valid and/or based on personal opinions that are sadly not in line with yours and it seems that you take it as a personal affront. You watched a lot of shows and movies. You reviewed them verbosely in your threads. Did in any of your reviews even attempt to dissect shows in acts? The nuances in each acts? Or you take the whole package as is?
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Post by Angelo on Sept 19, 2017 18:27:14 GMT -5
GoT succeeded the way World of Warcraft did. Granted it had good source material (even if badly written), but in terms of putting it into a TV show is what I mean.
Picked the best aspects of great products of the past, put them together in a mediocre way, added flashy CGI, and advertised the living hell out of it. Now granted when you are taking the best of other things, even if you aren't doing it as well it gonna come out well overall.
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Post by Baph on Sept 20, 2017 0:46:47 GMT -5
One other thing I will say is, I think in a few years we're going to look back and realize we may have taken this show for granted. What other show gets people talking and invested as this one? We're nitpicking the fuck out of it, but that's because it means so much to us, I guess When you compare it to other shows, even the absolute best, none of them give you as much as this one does. The other great ones usually achieve that by being MUCH tighter focused on a few entertaining aspects. They set the bar lower and get there easier. GoT goes for the fucking gusto and has somehow maintained excellence even with the ridiculuously high bar it's set out for I could see some people looking back and thinking, "Damn, I talked alot of shit about Game of Thrones last couple seasons, but I'd give my left nut to be able to relive that again, instead of watching (insert whatever current derivative and ultimately forgetable show on netflix or hulu and HBO or FX you may be watching at the time) And again, there's been a lot of great shows. I've watched more than my fair share the last 5-10 years. Breaking Bad, The Leftovers, Black Sails, The Wire, Mad Men, Attack on Titan, Death Note, Narcos, Fargo, Mr. Robot, Boardwalk Empire, season one of True Detective, this last season of Twin Peaks, House of Cards etc. But they're all watch em and move on sort of shows. Great in the moment, but once the episodes are over, I'm not thinking about them or discussing them GoT is a different animal. For MANY people too. But we tend to eventually always want to tear things down, complain, nitpick and throw out that fricken "jump the shark" line. Dexter!!!! Now THAT is a show that jumped the shark. I would argue that The Walking Dead and Sherlock have too. Game of Thrones though? I mean jeez, that feels a bit forced right now. And with time I think people will realize they were trying a little too hard to be edgy and out from the crowd and lament the fact that they may have hindered their own chance to enjoy it to the end, now that it's gone Jesus christ. We still like the show. More than any other shows currently out there. I think I can speak for most if not all of us. Legit criticisms are valid and/or based on personal opinions that are sadly not in line with yours and it seems that you take it as a personal affront. You watched a lot of shows and movies. You reviewed them verbosely in your threads. Did in any of your reviews even attempt to dissect shows in acts? The nuances in each acts? Or you take the whole package as is? Echo this 100%. Feels like a big strawman argument to suggest anyone is taking this show for granted or going to regret some observations and critiques once it's gone. I've repeatedly said it's the best show of all time. Losing a step late in the career doesn't make that any less true and it never will. Season 8 could just suck dick for six episodes and this would still be the best show of all time, no exceptions. Also, it's very, very (intentionally) over-simplified to say I just want people to die. I clearly outlined my concerns and big deaths was just one small piece of the issue. Even with the big death we got, it was predictable and poorly written. There's no fucking way the Littlefinger I know and love/hate would have hung around Winterfell after Brand said chaos is a ladder. That dude is gone and in the Vail in 48 hrs. It was a checklist kill, and not a classic, GoT, shocking death, ala Ned, Rob, Kat, Oberyn, High Sparrow . . . those were fucking shocking, jaw-dropping, fucked me up for a week deaths. Littlefinger was predicted by 90% of this board. THAT is the problem. The delivery was telegraphed and lazy and this show has literally redefined the genre that's known for telegraphed, formulaic shit like that by doing precisely the opposite for six seasons. Don't need deaths for death's sake. Need characters changing sides, evolving, switching allegiances, betraying people, getting emotional and fucking up and having it actually mean something in terms of consequences. That is a much bigger element of the show than just shock value deaths. Nor does plot armor necessarily imply death. See: golden arm Jamie. Wheel chair Brand. Viciously raped Sansa. Walking naked through the streets having feces flung at her Cersei. All still alive and well. But good god did they pay for it. The most powerful and shocking moments in the series were seeing the total lack of plot armor in terms of humiliation and suffering, and just REAL consequences, not just simplistic killing and removing pieces from the board ala Littlefinger somehow totally blindsided somehow and reduced to begging on the floor like a child. GoT is phenomenal and even in a weak season it still delivered two excellent episodes and two very good episodes, as well as the best CGI ever seen on prime time television, ever, twice. Nobody is saying this show isn't god's gift to humanity on a silver platter. Just making some pointed observations about the direction things have gone since the series got ahead of the books and how that seemed to accelerate in season 7.
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Post by Premier on Sept 21, 2017 10:31:37 GMT -5
I gotta check that out Tony.
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Post by Baph on Sept 21, 2017 13:56:25 GMT -5
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Post by Tapout on Sept 21, 2017 14:51:32 GMT -5
Is anyone else worried that Martin kicks it well before he finishes any other book? He just turned 69, and looks to be in as bad of physical shape as anyone could possibly be in.
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Post by hammerfaust on Sept 21, 2017 16:10:17 GMT -5
Is anyone else worried that Martin kicks it well before he finishes any other book? He just turned 69, and looks to be in as bade of physical shape as anyone could possibly be in. Yea, there is no way he is finishing even a fraction of what he wants to. In the article that Baph posted, he claims he wants to write up to 10 more Dunk and Egg novellas... ain't happening.
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Post by Baph on Sept 21, 2017 22:16:37 GMT -5
If that biscuit and gravy eating motherfucker ain't on your 2018 death list you just lost 300 pts.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 11:45:27 GMT -5
So, if all the Freys are dead...wouldn't Edmure and his wife have some kind of claim to The Twins?
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Post by PatSox on Sept 24, 2017 14:09:08 GMT -5
So, if all the Freys are dead...wouldn't Edmure and his wife have some kind of claim to The Twins? Ironically, yeah
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Post by Baph on Sept 24, 2017 14:15:56 GMT -5
That's pretty epic.
Hot virgin wife, lord of the Twins, and all you had to do was watch your entire family be murdered and their dead bodies paraded around by drunken inbreeds.
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Post by PatSox on Sept 25, 2017 2:06:45 GMT -5
That's pretty epic. Hot virgin wife, lord of the Twins, and all you had to do was watch your entire family be murdered and their dead bodies paraded around by drunken inbreeds. Hi I'm Edmure and this is my wife Roselyn. Her father killed most of my family and my niece killed most of hers.......but, somehow, we make it work
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Post by Baph on Sept 25, 2017 11:27:58 GMT -5
In our six CD set "a bond stronger than blood" we help you identify potential stumbling blocks to your own marriage and show you our battle tested tips for staying together through it all.
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Post by Premier on Sept 26, 2017 8:21:56 GMT -5
I'll listen.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2017 10:07:16 GMT -5
That's pretty epic. Hot virgin wife, lord of the Twins, and all you had to do was watch your entire family be murdered and their dead bodies paraded around by drunken inbreeds. If your nephew hadn't been off playing with foreign pussy, shit woulda been cool.
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Post by Premier on Sept 26, 2017 15:39:10 GMT -5
Ahem.
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Post by Premier on Sept 26, 2017 18:58:04 GMT -5
In other GoT news, Jon Snow got engaged to that ginger wilding that told him "He no' nothing"
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Post by Angelo on Oct 5, 2017 18:12:56 GMT -5
So not only does their traditional shooting schedule line them up for an at best January 2019 premier date, but now the Onion Knight himself has said they are actually increasing the amount of production time compared to their previous seasons.
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Post by Premier on Oct 6, 2017 9:21:06 GMT -5
GoT 2020
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Post by Tapout on Oct 6, 2017 9:23:54 GMT -5
Just started A Feast for Crows. Whats the consensus on this book? I only a few chapters in, and it feels different then his other works.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 6, 2017 11:28:15 GMT -5
Just started A Feast for Crows. Whats the consensus on this book? I only a few chapters in, and it feels different then his other works. It's very focused on certain characters and devoid of others. Many consider it the least thrilling of the series, myself included. Power through it as you do need to understand the Iron Islands and it's still entertaining. Does drag a bit in parts. I can spoil it and tell you that certain characters storylines are never mentioned in this book though - you have to wait for a Dance with Dragons to revisit them. PM me if you want to know.
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Post by Tapout on Oct 6, 2017 11:31:48 GMT -5
Just started A Feast for Crows. Whats the consensus on this book? I only a few chapters in, and it feels different then his other works. It's very focused on certain characters and devoid of others. Many consider it the least thrilling of the series, myself included. Power through it as you do need to understand the Iron Islands and it's still entertaining. Does drag a bit in parts. I can spoil it and tell you that certain characters storylines are never mentioned in this book though - you have to wait for a Dance with Dragons to revisit them. PM me if you want to know. Ill power through it. I've gotten through 3 books in just about a month. So this one should only take me a week or so.
Curious though, how do book readers rank the books thus far?
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Post by PatSox on Oct 6, 2017 12:49:33 GMT -5
Just started A Feast for Crows. Whats the consensus on this book? I only a few chapters in, and it feels different then his other works. Pretty big drop off from the first three books, IMO. The next and most recent book, A Dance with Dragons, is only slightly better. It's part of what I've been saying about how tough the show writers have had it. Not only with Martin's inability to finish the story, but with his own drop off in the quality of the source material It's become the chique thing to say the show's quality is slipping, while keeping Martin propped up as Shakespear reborn, but it's hardly the case. He's been a hinderance on the show writers the last few years, and I think they don't get nearly enough credit for powering through that as well as they have As far as ranking the five books so far, I would go Book 3: A Storm of Swords Book 1: Game of Thrones Book 2: A Clash of Kings Book 5: A Dance with Dragons Book 4: A Feast for Crows P.S. Still though, A Feast for Crows is certainly the coolest title. I'll give it THAT
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