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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 18:58:47 GMT -5
And to clarify what I'm arguing in this instance, if you number the sentences on my "how it works" explanation, this study ONLY takes step #3 of the process into consideration.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 18:59:09 GMT -5
Damnit, I SAID it was speculative. However, it's also common sense, based upon real-life observation.
I'm waiting for you to prove it wrong. But you won't.
Okay, I'll do it in two sentences. Prosecutors don't use prior offenses to make plea deals. Judges do when/if they accept the plea and during sentencing. This is your 100% inaccurate post. Couldn't be more wrong. The prosecutor knows everything about the defendant when considering a plea - in many cases they have to know to consider what options are available for a plea. Pre-trial diversion programs are very, very common pleas in criminal proceedings. You generally cannot receive diversion twice. If you are already on probation, you may not be eligible for certain plea deals. Your claim tells me you don't have a clue about what actually happens in court. Here is more reality: public defenders and prosecutors make ALL KINDS of deals sitting their court waiting for the judge. PDs meet clients IN COURT most of the time. Not sitting in their office chatting about the next appearance - they meet and discuss at the appearance, IF the defendant even needs to be there. Same with the ADA representing the state. The ADA or PD will literally say to each other "what are we doing today" regarding the plea and then decide if they are asking for a continuance. Every day - happens in every court. I have been a witness in state and federal court in multiple criminal cases over 20+ years. I do know what goes on in court and you and Jackel do NOT.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 19:04:43 GMT -5
Okay, I'll do it in two sentences. Prosecutors don't use prior offenses to make plea deals. Judges do when/if they accept the plea and during sentencing. This is your 100% inaccurate post. Couldn't be more wrong. The prosecutor knows everything about the defendant when considering a plea - in many cases they have to know to consider what options are available for a plea. Pre-trial diversion programs are very, very common pleas in criminal proceedings. You generally cannot receive diversion twice. If you are already on probation, you may not be eligible for certain plea deals. Your claim tells me you don't have a clue about what actually happens in court. Here is more reality: public defenders and prosecutors make ALL KINDS of deals sitting their court waiting for the judge. PDs meet clients IN COURT most of the time. Not sitting in their office chatting about the next appearance - they meet and discuss at the appearance, IF the defendant even needs to be there. Same with the ADA representing the state. The ADA or PD will literally say to each other "what are we doing today" regarding the plea and then decide if they are asking for a continuance. Every day - happens in every court. I have been a witness in state and federal court in multiple criminal cases over 20+ years. I do know what goes on in court and you and Jackel do NOT. Okay, I didn't mean to imply that it doesn't happen during arraignment court dockets. But again, you or me or Angelo can't make those deals, no matter when they happen. And even if you take the "well they'll use your prior criminal history to pressure you into accepting a plea deal", which I've never experienced. But, say it does happen, that doesn't change anything. The study is talking about plea deals being offered. So even if the prosecutor says "you've been convicted of robbery 3 times you better take this deal or you're getting screwed", that would still be them offering a deal. And that's what the fucking study is about, who and how often deals are OFFERED.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 19:06:15 GMT -5
And the physical location of where the deal is made seems like a really silly side argument to make. It doesn't change anything at all, literally nothing. Whether the plea deal is offered 5 minute before the arraignment or 5 months, it's still about whether a deal is offered.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 19:07:14 GMT -5
Here's how it works: You are arrested and charged and bond out (if necessary) and are given an arraignment court date. You hire a lawyer if you're looking to plea out. The lawyer works with the prosecution to make the parameters of the deal. Either on your arraignment date, or prior to, the prosecution and your lawyer take the deal to a judge to make a decision on whether to accept it or not. You don't need to hire an attorney. Many don't and show up on to the arraignment and the judge will ask them if they have counsel, and continue it so they can get one or appoint a PD. They don't "take a plea to the judge" - they will submit it to the judge on the date they are on the calendar and the judge will usually read it when he gets to that number on the docket and agree to it. Unless they have some kind of down date on your calendar where judges have the time to pre-clear pleas, but that is not something that happens in California.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 19:08:55 GMT -5
Here's how it works: You are arrested and charged and bond out (if necessary) and are given an arraignment court date. You hire a lawyer if you're looking to plea out. The lawyer works with the prosecution to make the parameters of the deal. Either on your arraignment date, or prior to, the prosecution and your lawyer take the deal to a judge to make a decision on whether to accept it or not. You don't need to hire an attorney. Many don't and show up on to the arraignment and the judge will ask them if they have counsel, and continue it so they can get one or appoint a PD. They don't "take a plea to the judge" - they will submit it to the judge on the date they are on the calendar and the judge will usually read it when he gets to that number on the docket and agree to it. Unless they have some kind of down date on your calendar where judges have the time to pre-clear pleas, but that is not something that happens in California. I can't speak for how you liberal fucks do it, but us real red blooded Americans in Missouri have the laws I described. You have to pass the Missouri bar to be able to work out your own plea deal.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 19:10:49 GMT -5
But yeah, the arraignment date the judge either accepts or (rarely) declines the deal.
But again, that part of the process isn't what this study is talking about.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 19:12:10 GMT -5
And the physical location of where the deal is made seems like a really silly side argument to make. It doesn't change anything at all, literally nothing. Whether the plea deal is offered 5 minute before the arraignment or 5 months, it's still about whether a deal is offered. ok, I'm talking about what someone may witness in court and it came up because Cyber attends court cases. Entertain yourself and sit through a full calendar someday. 75% of the cases will be continued and it will be a PD talking to the ADA about 5-6 cases they have together. I have never heard of self-represented pleas in my life, but have also never been involved in a case where someone self represented. I have watched them in court though. It's possible that in a self represented case the judge would offer a plea to the defendant that the ADA offered, but I agree the ADA isn't bringing a plea offer directly to the defendant.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 19:13:43 GMT -5
out of fairness, I will read the study so we can get back to the original point. Will report back tomorrow.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 19:17:57 GMT -5
You da man OC. I hope this thread has made it clear:
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Post by Angelo on Oct 31, 2017 19:35:54 GMT -5
Oc, I don't know what contradictions you're rambling about. And I didn't say a word about representing yourself in court. I said you cannot walk into a prosecutor's office in the state of Missouri, and make a plea deal. And that's what this study was about. It didn't go into what happened with the judge or on court date. It only talks about the deals offered by the prosecution. There is zip in that study beyond that. If you are representing yourself, hell even if you are not and just waiving the right to an attorney, you can still make a plea deal with the Prosecutor's office, regardless of the state. It happens on a regular basis (traffic court in small towns is the best example of this)
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 19:57:58 GMT -5
Oc, I don't know what contradictions you're rambling about. And I didn't say a word about representing yourself in court. I said you cannot walk into a prosecutor's office in the state of Missouri, and make a plea deal. And that's what this study was about. It didn't go into what happened with the judge or on court date. It only talks about the deals offered by the prosecution. There is zip in that study beyond that. If you are representing yourself, hell even if you are not and just waiving the right to an attorney, you can still make a plea deal with the Prosecutor's office, regardless of the state. It happens on a regular basis (traffic court in small towns is the best example of this) Wrong. Don't be a fucking idiot and argue based on what you though you heard in a community college class. Local municipalities have been notorious in the state of Missouri for not accepting pro se defendants in the plea bargaining process. It's only been since Ferguson that that has SLOWLY started to change, and only in bigger municipalities. I don't know, and I'm not going to look up other states. But this is how it is in Missouri: The defendant nor the prosecution are required to enter into negotiations under Missouri law. The DA's I have dealt with (Missouri district 16, district 217, and both municipal courts) all invoke this, and it's practiced across Missouri state court as a rule, to not make plea deals with pro se defendants. I know because I've tried at all of them. I think I did fuck up and say that you can't, by law, represent yourself in plea bargains with the prosecution. It's not technically illegal, just not practiced because of the Missouri statute I referenced above. So I apologize for being technically wrong, wail away.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 20:14:34 GMT -5
Before dingle berry here comes up with some bullshit, see:
State v. DeClue, 805 S.W.2d 253 (Mo. App. 1991).
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 20:24:19 GMT -5
I feel compelled to clean up my understanding of the actual paper. The only part of the process that these numbers are represented with actual raw data is the plea bargaining process. (I would venture to guess that a lot of that could be explained by socioeconomic status and the ability to hire an attorney, but this study only mentions the racial aspect and data is data, even if it's incomplete)
The rest of the paper makes grand claims and accusations that "perhaps" race is the determining factor, but also admits that the numbers could be explained by other things.
So it's not that the paper is only about the plea bargaining process, just the only part I read that wasn't conjecture and was just raw data that supports the racial disparity claims.
You know what? After reading it again, I'm wholesale flip flopping my opinion on the paper. I can't say for sure there is no racial disparity, but it isn't complete enough for me to say for sure that there is. It is too biased and presents incomplete numbers, and can easily be discredited. I gave it the benefit of the doubt because I only actually read the parts with numbers, and scanned the rest. I had to get stoned and read it twice to comprehend, because I'm dumb.
This thread has been a glimpse into the fucked up mind of Andrew, where I can and will argue all sides of just about any topic. I'll just turn this thread into an intellectual masturbation session with myself. At least I know for sure I'm a worthy adversary.
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Post by Angelo on Oct 31, 2017 20:45:37 GMT -5
Well I made my own plea agreement, and the Supreme Court has said that you can. Just because you are stupid and let the cops tell you one thing (which they can) is your own uneducated issue. Much of St Louis metro area like to ignore plea bargains with non represented defendents because they are usually idiots so they can win in court and it is better for their record. Legally however, a person can agree to a plea bargain regardless of if they are represented. It isn't so much they can't as the prosecutor usually uses their discretion to not when they are dealing with idiots... Which based on your experience tells me they felt you didn't have clue one about the law.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 20:55:24 GMT -5
No you didn't. Not anything more than a municipal violation that already didn't have jail time as a possibility and in a jurisdiction like St Louis proper or Kansas City. Even then I don't believe you.
Please though, continue to use personal insults. I couldn't give a flying fuck less and it doesn't do anything but make my case stronger here. Not that I need any help from you to convince the board that you are the bottom of the barrel here when it comes to debating anything.
Your "personal experience" means nothing. Not because anecdotal evidence or personal experience isn't valid in a debate, but because it isn't real. It didn't happen. You are a liar.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 21:04:58 GMT -5
A plea bargain or "deal" is not the same as a guilty plea to your charge. So even if you did walk into St Louis traffic court and plead guilty to speeding, it has absolutely no bearing on what I'm talking about or what the paper you brought up was.
A plea bargain is an agreement reached in which charges are altered or dropped. A guilty plea is just that, even if it does come with reduced sentence or stipulations.
You don't know dick about what actually goes on in a courtroom. You are getting your insight from movies and fantasizing about what it would be like if you were there. You probably got bent over, paid your fine, and are now typing out your "well I was about to......" after the fact fantasy.
Don't expect another word from me about this, but please do feel free to keep calling me dumb and whatever else you want to come up with.
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Post by HumanAgent on Oct 31, 2017 21:13:20 GMT -5
No you didn't. Not anything more than a municipal violation that already didn't have jail time as a possibility and in a jurisdiction like St Louis proper or Kansas City. Even then I don't believe you. Please though, continue to use personal insults. I couldn't give a flying fuck less and it doesn't do anything but make my case stronger here. Not that I need any help from you to convince the board that you are the bottom of the barrel here when it comes to debating anything. Your "personal experience" means nothing. Not because anecdotal evidence or personal experience isn't valid in a debate, but because it isn't real. It didn't happen. You are a liar. That seems it be the general consensus. When you have all the time in the world you have all the time to make up these creative and detailed stories. It's like a child, that outgrew was his body...
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 21:18:31 GMT -5
Jackel is being obtuse, as usual. Accepting say traffic school is essentially a plea bargain anyone can do for an infraction, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what anyone is talking about nor what the paper I assume the paper is talking about. In a criminal proceeding, while one can technically represent themselves, that does NOT mean an ADA is going to sit down with someone to discuss a plea. They simply won't or at least I have never heard or witnessed it. And, I imagine the reason they wouldn't and instead defer to bringing any form of plea deal up in front of the judge, is so the non represented party AND the prosecution are totally up front and there is no confusion.
I find it impossible that an ADA sat down with Jackel to negotiate a plea. Even less likely than him being accepted in MIT, Harvard and Cal-Tech.
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Post by Angelo on Oct 31, 2017 21:22:52 GMT -5
1. Outside of a judge making suggested changes (which they do at times), a plea bargain is reached between the defendant and the DA's office (in some cases it isn't referred to as the District Attorney's office but you get my gist). The defendent may use a lawyer to advise them on whether to accept a proposed plea agreement, but the decision and option to is theirs and theirs alone (outside of transfers of power of attorney in regards to mental illness).
2. The judge then decides whether or not to accept said plea agreement between the Prosecutor's office and the Defendant (not the decedent's attorney who has no rights if their client wants to accept/deny).
The defendant can act as their own lawyer, or waive the right to representation (both upheld by supreme court). And in either case may negotiate a plea agreement with a prosecutor. This is fucking law 101. Not some TV shit but actual literal law 101. Or maybe law 23, or 122, depending on the college, but it is literally intro shit.
In Pro Per carries the same legal rights as waiving the right to an attorney (there are slight procedural differences between the two in a courtroom), and also the same rights as having a lawyer represent you. Whoever told you a prosecutor can't negotiate a plea bargain with you without a lawyer, was fucking with you for some reason.
And it did happen to me. I was charged with 3rd Degree Assault in the state of New York. I reached a plea bargain where I pleaded guilty instead to a noise violation with 150$ fine and 100hrs of community service, which the office then forgave the hours.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 21:29:24 GMT -5
Jackel is being obtuse, as usual. Accepting say traffic school is essentially a plea bargain anyone can do for an infraction, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what anyone is talking about nor what the paper I assume the paper is talking about. In a criminal proceeding, while one can technically represent themselves, that does NOT mean an ADA is going to sit down with someone to discuss a plea. They simply won't or at least I have never heard or witnessed it. And, I imagine the reason they wouldn't and instead defer to bringing any form of plea deal up in front of the judge, is so the non represented party AND the prosecution are totally up front and there is no confusion. I find it impossible that an ADA sat down with Jackel to negotiate a plea. Even less likely than him being accepted in MIT, Harvard and Cal-Tech. Right, but even a traffic school situation is usually part of an SIS probation, even unsupervised. It is still a guilty plea and not a plea deal bargain which is explicitly what this paper is talking about and what I thought we were talking about. And it didn't happen at all. Now it's New York where it happened, not Missouri so it conveniently switched states after I made it very clear I'm only deeply familiar with Missouri.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 21:35:19 GMT -5
Yes - good point. I believe the ticket even explains you must plead guilty to be offered traffic school. A more common plea deal would be a hit-n-run with no injury and entering a no contest plea agreement for a deferred sentence, fine and summary probation for X amount of time. Expunge or charges dropped after say 1 year if you don't get arrested again.
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Post by Angelo on Oct 31, 2017 21:35:23 GMT -5
I didn't switch states I've mentioned it before and the laws are the same when it comes to plea bargains.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 21:43:41 GMT -5
When I was in college, about 12-15 of us got arrested for disturbing the peace and were charged with misdemeanors. We were all booked, went to the drunk tank and were released in the morning. On our court date, only 2 of my friends had attorneys. The DA did come up to our non represented group and said he would reduce it to an infraction with a $50 ticket if we pled guilty. We all agreed, the judge agreed and we paid our fines and were done. So I will say it is possible but submit it is very rare for a prosecutor to deal directly with a defendant and I believe Jackel is lying.
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Post by Angelo on Oct 31, 2017 21:53:25 GMT -5
When I was in college, about 12-15 of us got arrested for disturbing the peace and were charged with misdemeanors. We were all booked, went to the drunk tank and were released in the morning. On our court date, only 2 of my friends had attorneys. The DA did come up to our non represented group and said he would reduce it to an infraction with a $50 ticket if we pled guilty. We all agreed, the judge agreed and we paid our fines and were done. So I will say it is possible but submit it is very rare for a prosecutor to deal directly with a defendant and I believe Jackel is lying. I'm not lying, I swear to fucking god, I'm not embellishing or lying about this. But right there, what you did was a plea bargain. Now usually a DA or ADA won't do that with a defendant (except on BS charges like traffic violations to fill the coffers and not inconvenience the officers), because the defendant usually too stupid then to present a reasonable defense against the charges or hinder the system. Hell probably the only reason I was offered a plea in my situation was who my family was, one of the witnesses, and the DA's brother was my wrestling coach and I was the only person for the weight class for the school at the time. Hell I even only accidentally agreed to the plea. They offered the plea I said no, my parents said they'd talk me into it. Came up to the judge, and I didn't understand what he said and I thought he said something he didn't and I said yes and he took it as the answer to the plea! The DA's office wound up "forgiving" my community service hours, I'm still not positive if it was to keep me quiet on not complaining about the judge agreeing without me knowingly agreeing to the plea, or if it was a scratch your back over the wrestling thing.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 22:08:43 GMT -5
My first charge was for marijuana in a municipality. I was 19, had listened intently to friend's experience in court and read what I could and represented myself pro se. I tried to do exactly what we're talking about, went to the prosecutor's office and asked about it. They told me they would not negotiate plea bargains with defendants who aren't represented by legal counsel. I took it to trial myself and attempted a "municipal laws are unconstitutional" defense. I lost my shot at probation, drug classes, etc with this decision. I would have had to take it to the MO appellate courts and would have sat in jail longer than my actual sentence. I did 45 days in jail over 1oz> of weed. I was incredulous and a martyr in my own mind at the time, but I tried.
After that, I've been charged with driving on a suspended license in a municipality and through the HiPo (state) and used a lawyer for "plea to lesser, no point" deals.
My other big criminal offense was a couple of summers ago, I got ticketed for keeping blue catfish inside the "slot limit" (which means you can keep fish below 26" and above 34"....I was incredulous over this statute as well, but not as much piss and vinegar. I didn't make the 3 hour drive for court and ended up getting a lawyer to make a deal for just the failure to appear and a general wildlife violation in order to lower the fines and avoid any loss of hunting/fishing privileges.
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Post by Angelo on Oct 31, 2017 22:37:11 GMT -5
My first charge was for marijuana in a municipality. I was 19, had listened intently to friend's experience in court and read what I could and represented myself pro se. I tried to do exactly what we're talking about, went to the prosecutor's office and asked about it. They told me they would not negotiate plea bargains with defendants who aren't represented by legal counsel. I took it to trial myself and attempted a "municipal laws are unconstitutional" defense. I lost my shot at probation, drug classes, etc with this decision. I would have had to take it to the MO appellate courts and would have sat in jail longer than my actual sentence. I did 45 days in jail over 1oz> of weed. I was incredulous and a martyr in my own mind at the time, but I tried. After that, I've been charged with driving on a suspended license in a municipality and through the HiPo (state) and used a lawyer for "plea to lesser, no point" deals. My other big criminal offense was a couple of summers ago, I got ticketed for keeping blue catfish inside the "slot limit" (which means you can keep fish below 26" and above 34"....I was incredulous over this statute as well, but not as much piss and vinegar. I didn't make the 3 hour drive for court and ended up getting a lawyer to make a deal for just the failure to appear and a general wildlife violation in order to lower the fines and avoid any loss of hunting/fishing privileges. Yeah, they just screwed you over in example one because you didn't know better and they weren't required to inform you as such, or they didn't have any interest in plea bargaining in the first place (more likely) and wanted to shut you up. That said was there anything in your situation that would have lead them to plea bargain you in the first place? Usually there are not plea bargains on simple possession chargers unless.... 1. Court system is backed up. 2. Questionable stop/search/seizure. 3. Personal connections. 4. Municipality "protesting" state laws. 5. Trading up for dealer/supplier, or someone else who's connected to such.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 6:54:57 GMT -5
It is a very good theory, and it needs to be accounted for in future repeats of this study (even redone with that in consideration). But finally, you are making the assumption that blacks can't be racist against blacks, which is pure 100% unadulterated bullshit. You also bring up the police (which have no bearing here as it is focused on the prosecutor, defender, presiding judge, and defendant). Another PERFECT example of your maddening disingenuousness in these matters of debate. I NEVER IMPLIED that blacks are incapable of being racist against other blacks, you just pulled that inaccurate inference straight out of your rectum! ....Indeed, the OPPOSITE is true. More than once I have mentioned the FACT that dark-skinned blacks often consider themselves to be "authentic", true African descendants with no "pollution" with white blood, unlike their lighter-skinned counterparts. Sometimes it's friendly bantering, and sometimes it's outwardly, genuinely hostile. These blacks are just as racist as ANY white person.
But in serious matters such as determining guilt or innocence in a criminal proceeding, most people (regardless of race) will put aside their bias and consider the evidence and nothing else. That is why I say that predominantly-black juries mitigate against unjust/racist verdicts. After all, IT ONLY TAKES ONE DISSENTING JUROR to derail a racist prosecution, and force a mistrial to be declared.
Oh, and you think that the police -- who literally initiate criminal charges and cases when they encounter criminal behavior while on patrol -- aren't influential in this process? That the judgement calls they make (including exactly which charges to file, and against whom) aren't a factor in this discussion? Unbelievable. Here's a clue: They are a HUGE factor, despite the fact that these namby-pamby, ivory-tower, liberal-academe "studies" often choose to ignore them.
Reality is sometimes a difficult thing to face. These asinine studies are not designed to reveal the truth, but rather to avoid it. Politics over common sense, nothing more.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 7:03:31 GMT -5
Damnit, I SAID it was speculative. However, it's also common sense, based upon real-life observation.
I'm waiting for you to prove it wrong. But you won't.
Okay, I'll do it in two sentences. Prosecutors don't use prior offenses to make plea deals. Judges do when/if they accept the plea and during sentencing. Well, actually, you made a fool of yourself in those sentences. 100% wrong, as OC noted.
Impressive.
But you really DO owe yourself a quick, hard slap upside the head for writing such drivel.
Not too hard, now. I don't want you to hurt yourself; you're an entertaining dude.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 7:16:16 GMT -5
And it did happen to me. I was charged with 3rd Degree Assault in the state of New York. I reached a plea bargain where I pleaded guilty instead to a noise violation with 150$ fine and 100hrs of community service, which the office then forgave the hours.Let me guess. YOU WERE TOO BUSY AT YOUR JOB to fulfill the requirement?
Or did you actually show up for community service and bore everyone to death with your bullsh*t fantasies, leading them to just dismiss you in order to preserve their sanity?
Just curious.
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