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Post by slaytan on Oct 30, 2017 19:04:39 GMT -5
Does Angelo's silly-ass "racial disparity" study explain whether or not juvenile offenses were factored into their examination of this alleged unfairness?
I'd be willing to bet not. Because prosecutors have access to any criminal offenses as a juvenile that may have been committed by an accused felon.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just SPECULATE that the average black criminal facing felony charges probably has a significantly WORSE juvenile record than a white felon facing the same charge. Hence, they face harsher treatment, because THEIR BEHAVIOR, CONSIDERED IN TOTAL, warrants it.
And any of you dweebs that want to whine that I'm a racist for suggesting this, get a f*cking grip on reality, read the last seven words of my sig, and shut up. I enthusiastically invite you to prove me wrong.
Actually you bring up a good point, that is something that wasn't accounted for in the study, and something that in the future when re-doing the study they should attempt to get permission to get. However your speculation that juvenile offenses affected the rates as much as it did is extremely thin, though it is a possibility. It’s the behavior of the felon and nature of the felony.
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Post by Angelo on Oct 31, 2017 15:44:26 GMT -5
So this attack in NYC, a crazy person? Terrorist attack? Or given a few of the statements, were people collateral damage as it seems the guy was chasing after a particular person.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 15:55:44 GMT -5
Does Angelo's silly-ass "racial disparity" study explain whether or not juvenile offenses were factored into their examination of this alleged unfairness?
I'd be willing to bet not. Because prosecutors have access to any criminal offenses as a juvenile that may have been committed by an accused felon.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just SPECULATE that the average black criminal facing felony charges probably has a significantly WORSE juvenile record than a white felon facing the same charge. Hence, they face harsher treatment, because THEIR BEHAVIOR, CONSIDERED IN TOTAL, warrants it.
And any of you dweebs that want to whine that I'm a racist for suggesting this, get a f*cking grip on reality, read the last seven words of my sig, and shut up. I enthusiastically invite you to prove me wrong.
Can't argue with a hypothetical/presumption like that. Solid argument, fact based and all. No possible way anyone could deconstruct that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2017 16:21:57 GMT -5
So Angelo thinks my speculative theory is pretty thin? OK, fair enough, although I disagree.
But here's more FACTS, rather than speculation, that will again cast real doubt upon the validity of these never-ending accusations of unfairness in the justice system, at least as far as here in Detroit:
Detroit is a city with a HUGE black majority population...approximately 85% of its residents are black. Here in Detroit, EXACTLY WHERE WOULD, OR DOES, THIS AWFUL UNFAIR TREATMENT IN CRIMINAL CASES COME FROM?
The police force (nearly 80% black)?
The judges presiding over criminal cases (again, many more blacks than whites)?
The lawyers arguing the cases ( yep, once again, legions of black defense attorneys in the Detroit bar)?
The juries hearing the cases (Detroit Recorder's Court, disbanded more than a decade ago, had a jury pool that was restricted to Detroit residents....All-black juries were common, although they would occasionally have 3-4 whites on them)?
The present-day criminal juries (in Wayne County Circuit Court) now have more whites due to a county-wide selection pool, but most still have MANY black members. Majority black juries are still quite common.
All of the facts above mitigate strongly against any gross unfairness in Detroit's criminal justice apparatus. I suspect that many OTHER cities in America have similar racial makeups, so I have to wonder where all the alleged "racism" in trying, convicting and sentencing black criminals is actually happening.
...And I haven't even mentioned the routine reviews and safeguards against racial prejudice which exist, independent of the other factors listed above. These include jury strikes, etc. which already favor the defense team.
So I cannot help but be skeptical about yet ANOTHER "study".
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2017 16:32:44 GMT -5
Does Angelo's silly-ass "racial disparity" study explain whether or not juvenile offenses were factored into their examination of this alleged unfairness?
I'd be willing to bet not. Because prosecutors have access to any criminal offenses as a juvenile that may have been committed by an accused felon.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just SPECULATE that the average black criminal facing felony charges probably has a significantly WORSE juvenile record than a white felon facing the same charge. Hence, they face harsher treatment, because THEIR BEHAVIOR, CONSIDERED IN TOTAL, warrants it.
And any of you dweebs that want to whine that I'm a racist for suggesting this, get a f*cking grip on reality, read the last seven words of my sig, and shut up. I enthusiastically invite you to prove me wrong.
Can't argue with a hypothetical/presumption like that. Solid argument, fact based and all. No possible way anyone could deconstruct that. Damnit, I SAID it was speculative. However, it's also common sense, based upon real-life observation.
I'm waiting for you to prove it wrong. But you won't.
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Post by Angelo on Oct 31, 2017 16:49:40 GMT -5
So Angelo thinks my speculative theory is pretty thin? OK, fair enough, although I disagree.
It is a very good theory, and it needs to be accounted for in future repeats of this study (even redone with that in consideration). However it does not account for the differences in plea bargaining with those with no criminal history (they did account for it there). That difference is such a large number in the first place, with your theory accounted for, that it wouldn't be likely it would affect the other results in such a way that results in anything near even treatment in the plea bargaining process. And as I did point out, much of it could be geoculturally limited to Wisconsin. But finally, you are making the assumption that blacks can't be racist against blacks, which is pure 100% unadulterated bullshit. You also bring up the police (which have no bearing here as it is focused on the prosecutor, defender, presiding judge, and defendant). Your theory could result in a change in the percentages yes, and if fact I would expect that it would, but it wouldn't account for the large discrepancy and I've yet to hear a single reason or even more reasons on top of the juvenile offenses that would add up to anything near those differences.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 17:16:48 GMT -5
The only way to fairly review and compare criminal convictions is to review the ENTIRE incident. You MUST have the police report, witness testimony, every initial charge, final plea, past criminal history and specific on the offense. Is this person employed? Were they cooperative? Have they entered into prior diversion programs? "
Some jackass sociology student trying to garner information and form an opinion from partial info? As big of a waste of time as engaging with jackel.
The arresting officer/detective/court investigator absolutely ALWAYS play an important role in helping the ADA determine what they want to do. This is also lost on a sociology simpleton like jackel.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 17:35:33 GMT -5
Can't argue with a hypothetical/presumption like that. Solid argument, fact based and all. No possible way anyone could deconstruct that. Damnit, I SAID it was speculative. However, it's also common sense, based upon real-life observation.
I'm waiting for you to prove it wrong. But you won't.
Okay, I'll do it in two sentences. Prosecutors don't use prior offenses to make plea deals. Judges do when/if they accept the plea and during sentencing.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 17:38:13 GMT -5
And also oh wise one, how much time do you spend behind closed doors in defense/prosecutor meetings to get these "real world observations"?
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Post by HumanAgent on Oct 31, 2017 17:38:28 GMT -5
We can all agree that the crack/cocaine sentencing disparity favors the rich mostly white person over the poor mostly black person...?
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 17:42:10 GMT -5
The only way to fairly review and compare criminal convictions is to review the ENTIRE incident. You MUST have the police report, witness testimony, every initial charge, final plea, past criminal history and specific on the offense. Is this person employed? Were they cooperative? Have they entered into prior diversion programs? " Some jackass sociology student trying to garner information and form an opinion from partial info? As big of a waste of time as engaging with jackel. The arresting officer/detective/court investigator absolutely ALWAYS play an important role in helping the ADA determine what they want to do. This is also lost on a sociology simpleton like jackel. It's not taking convictions into consideration. It's taking raw data about plea bargains from prosecution offices of the jurisdictions in the study. And I'll take a "jackass sociology student"'s study and work on a subject in an acedemic setting over the OPINIONS of a couple of biased jackasses on a message board.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 18:03:46 GMT -5
The only way to fairly review and compare criminal convictions is to review the ENTIRE incident. You MUST have the police report, witness testimony, every initial charge, final plea, past criminal history and specific on the offense. Is this person employed? Were they cooperative? Have they entered into prior diversion programs? " Some jackass sociology student trying to garner information and form an opinion from partial info? As big of a waste of time as engaging with jackel. The arresting officer/detective/court investigator absolutely ALWAYS play an important role in helping the ADA determine what they want to do. This is also lost on a sociology simpleton like jackel. It's not taking convictions into consideration. It's taking raw data about plea bargains from prosecution offices of the jurisdictions in the study. And I'll take a "jackass sociology student"'s study and work on a subject in an acedemic setting over the OPINIONS of a couple of biased jackasses on a message board. Of course you will. I have been in court at least 200 times in my career - how about you? Never sound about right? And you have absolutely no idea WTF you are talking about with how plea deals are arranged. They are brought to the judge who accepts them 99.999% of the time. They are worked out between the ADA and the defense attorney every day, all day, in every single court in the US at both the state and federal level.
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Post by Angelo on Oct 31, 2017 18:07:12 GMT -5
The only way to fairly review and compare criminal convictions is to review the ENTIRE incident. You MUST have the police report, witness testimony, every initial charge, final plea, past criminal history and specific on the offense. Is this person employed? Were they cooperative? Have they entered into prior diversion programs? " Some jackass sociology student trying to garner information and form an opinion from partial info? As big of a waste of time as engaging with jackel. The arresting officer/detective/court investigator absolutely ALWAYS play an important role in helping the ADA determine what they want to do. This is also lost on a sociology simpleton like jackel. They had access to all the statements and reports from the arresting officers and investigators. That's how they were able to control for differences between defendants to place them on as even ground as possible. Damnit, I SAID it was speculative. However, it's also common sense, based upon real-life observation.
I'm waiting for you to prove it wrong. But you won't.
Okay, I'll do it in two sentences. Prosecutors don't use prior offenses to make plea deals. Judges do when/if they accept the plea and during sentencing. Yes they absolutely do, and not just prior offenses, but even dropped charges and I know this from personal experience when I had to make a plea agreement on a battery charge. They shouldn't use past behavior, and instead treat every new incident as a new slate IMO, but they don't. We can all agree that the crack/cocaine sentencing disparity favors the rich mostly white person over the poor mostly black person...? The disparity of EVERY CRIME favors rich over poor, and rich white over that.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 18:09:57 GMT -5
And also oh wise one, how much time do you spend behind closed doors in defense/prosecutor meetings to get these "real world observations"? Cyber has told us for years he attends trials and observes as entertainment. But of course a sociology student knows more - some snowflake sitting in a fucking classroom can fool you and jackel by throwing out race card bait and you sheep gobble it up as fast as possible. of course you do. Whitey is out to get them innocent black dudes, amiright? Even if the judge, prosecutor, arresting officers and defense attorney are all black - it must be whitey! Take a knee, moron.
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Post by Angelo on Oct 31, 2017 18:20:53 GMT -5
And also oh wise one, how much time do you spend behind closed doors in defense/prosecutor meetings to get these "real world observations"? Cyber has told us for years he attends trials and observes as entertainment. But of course a sociology student knows more - some snowflake sitting in a fucking classroom can fool you and jackel by throwing out race card bait and you sheep gobble it up as fast as possible. of course you do. Whitey is out to get them innocent black dudes, amiright? Even if the judge, prosecutor, arresting officers and defense attorney are all black - it must be whitey! Take a knee, moron. Now I can tell you didn't read the study, he wasn't a sociology student. He was working with lawyers and is a lawyer himself (and a PhD in Economics). The study came about as a result of other work he did focusing on how economics and law work together and he noticed trends and went to study them further. This was the result. Also, which may blow your mind, given his specialties, and various papers he has done, he is most likely quite conservative.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 18:27:20 GMT -5
And also oh wise one, how much time do you spend behind closed doors in defense/prosecutor meetings to get these "real world observations"? Cyber has told us for years he attends trials and observes as entertainment. But of course a sociology student knows more - some snowflake sitting in a fucking classroom can fool you and jackel by throwing out race card bait and you sheep gobble it up as fast as possible. of course you do. Whitey is out to get them innocent black dudes, amiright? Even if the judge, prosecutor, arresting officers and defense attorney are all black - it must be whitey! Take a knee, moron. Who said anything about race and race bait, other than the guys who can't wait to talk about race and tell us how not racist they are? I am trying to talk about the study that everyone is bitching about, but apparently nobody read. It's not using any opinion. It's using raw data it got directly from prosecutor's office. And I've had 3 plea deals done on my behalf, so I guess we can just agree we see things from different sides of the fence on that one. Again, the presumptuousness and lack of awareness in what you're constantly implying in these discussions is mind boggling.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 18:29:44 GMT -5
I read the abstract.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 18:29:55 GMT -5
Also, sitting in on trials and arraignments are not going to show anyone a God damned thing about what, how, or why plea deals are struck. Get the fuck out of here with the bullshit and either discuss the study or save your race rhetoric for your echo chamber.
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Post by Angelo on Oct 31, 2017 18:31:34 GMT -5
Everything that is wrong with mainstream media when it comes to almost anything scientific study or tech related innovation.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 18:31:56 GMT -5
And Angelo, no they do not. Prosecutors do not use that information. Judges do. This study, from what I read and can tell, didn't go into results of the plea deals or whether judges accepted or denied them.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 18:34:32 GMT -5
And don't bullshit me brother. If anything, I'm defending you here. I live in the same state you do and have been through the system with Missouri's laws. The prosecution goes to the judge with the deal arranged between your lawyer and the prosecution(because in Missouri you have to have a lawyer to strike plea deals, you can't represent yourself in the prosecutor's office).
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 18:36:02 GMT -5
Cyber has told us for years he attends trials and observes as entertainment. But of course a sociology student knows more - some snowflake sitting in a fucking classroom can fool you and jackel by throwing out race card bait and you sheep gobble it up as fast as possible. of course you do. Whitey is out to get them innocent black dudes, amiright? Even if the judge, prosecutor, arresting officers and defense attorney are all black - it must be whitey! Take a knee, moron. Who said anything about race and race bait, other than the guys who can't wait to talk about race and tell us how not racist they are? I am trying to talk about the study that everyone is bitching about, but apparently nobody read. It's not using any opinion. It's using raw data it got directly from prosecutor's office. And I've had 3 plea deals done on my behalf, so I guess we can just agree we see things from different sides of the fence on that one. Again, the presumptuousness and lack of awareness in what you're constantly implying in these discussions is mind boggling. You came in after years away to tell us how wrong we were to mock multi-millionaire BLACK kneelers and how they have a point. I don't bring up this crapola but when anyone plays the "racial injustice" card long enough they deserve the ridicule that comes with it. I have no interest in this study or any race baiting narrative, and definitely not with people that have zero experience in criminal justice.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 18:38:09 GMT -5
Also, sitting in on trials and arraignments are not going to show anyone a God damned thing about what, how, or why plea deals are struck. Get the fuck out of here with the bullshit and either discuss the study or save your race rhetoric for your echo chamber. 1000% wrong. You're as full of shit as jackel - maybe you are a jackel troll account. How many times is the average criminal case continued? 5? 6? They talk about the plea ALL THE TIME, right there in court. All the fucking time.
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Post by Angelo on Oct 31, 2017 18:38:46 GMT -5
And Angelo, no they do not. Prosecutors do not use that information. Judges do. This study, from what I read and can tell, didn't go into results of the plea deals or whether judges accepted or denied them. Well my prosecutor did, and every lawyer in my classes talked about using previous charges (even if dropped), deals, and convictions as evidence of pattern of behaviour as a means to pressure a defendant into accepting a deal instead of a risking a trial. Granted it is up to the individual prosecutor if they want to give you a clean slate or not, but I don't know a single one that does.
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Post by Angelo on Oct 31, 2017 18:40:39 GMT -5
And don't bullshit me brother. If anything, I'm defending you here. I live in the same state you do and have been through the system with Missouri's laws. The prosecution goes to the judge with the deal arranged between your lawyer and the prosecution(because in Missouri you have to have a lawyer to strike plea deals, you can't represent yourself in the prosecutor's office). Umm you most certainly can represent yourself in all 50 states, as the Supreme Court has upheld numerous times. I don't give a shit if you are defending me if you are making up bullshit at the same time, that is just as bad as someone reading an abstract and thinking it is a sociology paper with an agenda or solid conclusion.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 18:42:08 GMT -5
And don't bullshit me brother. If anything, I'm defending you here. I live in the same state you do and have been through the system with Missouri's laws. The prosecution goes to the judge with the deal arranged between your lawyer and the prosecution(because in Missouri you have to have a lawyer to strike plea deals, you can't represent yourself in the prosecutor's office). you can't even keep your own shit straight and contradict yourself. No prosecutor in this country can enact a plea deal - it is ALWAYS a judge. And in every state, the plea is arranged and then brought to the judge who accepts it almost universally.
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Post by ocmmafan on Oct 31, 2017 18:45:59 GMT -5
Everything that is wrong with mainstream media when it comes to almost anything scientific study or tech related innovation. I never read any of the garbage you post. I read the abstract after I posted and after I read what garth and cyber had said. Your history of misunderstanding the very shit you share is legendary and it always turns into someone having to educate you, so no chance I go back down that rabbit hole.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 18:50:23 GMT -5
Oc, I don't know what contradictions you're rambling about.
And I didn't say a word about representing yourself in court. I said you cannot walk into a prosecutor's office in the state of Missouri, and make a plea deal. And that's what this study was about. It didn't go into what happened with the judge or on court date. It only talks about the deals offered by the prosecution. There is zip in that study beyond that.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 18:53:18 GMT -5
Here's how it works:
You are arrested and charged and bond out (if necessary) and are given an arraignment court date.
You hire a lawyer if you're looking to plea out.
The lawyer works with the prosecution to make the parameters of the deal.
Either on your arraignment date, or prior to, the prosecution and your lawyer take the deal to a judge to make a decision on whether to accept it or not.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Oct 31, 2017 18:56:14 GMT -5
OC, I give you a little bit of credit for vaguely being in the field. (not meant as an insult or slight, I just either don't remember or you've never been clear about what you actually do.)
But, I can tell by the way this is being discussed that nobody talking about this has ever actually been involved in the system as a defense or prosecution lawyer or as a defendant.
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