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Post by johncfc on Apr 12, 2017 10:26:04 GMT -5
Forgive me for relying only on my vague memory of articles read on this incident (one or two), but I'm pretty sure that they needed the seats because they needed to get crew members to their next stop. This isn't uncommon, and only causes a huge problem when a flight is packed and lacks volunteers. It isn't a always a situation where they sold 104 tickets for 100 seats. It is a situation where if they can get a couple of people to volunteer then they can accommodate getting the crew they need to another location. In that scenario, the change the flight plans of 4 people instead of disrupting/cancelling/delaying an entire airplane at a different airport. Secondly, the only sell what you have standard, if applied to across all industries just doesn't happen. The entire insurance industry is based on calculations of probable outcomes and yes they get it wrong sometimes and experience more (or less) losses than expected. The airlines us a little figurin' to determine that they need 10X number of people to consistently fill 100 seats. Men's rec league basketball teams often need 15 people to get just 5 guys to show up on a night. Lets all relax a little. "Doctor Man," was being a douche bag. Airlines hardballed it too hard. A mid-level supervisor probably didn't have the authority to raise the offer above $800 to volunteer, and I'm guessing that'll change. It's not like a restaurant that unexpectedly runs out of fish on the night the have all you can eat fish ( i hope this fictional fish fry is perch) is obligated to keep the place open and send some people out to find you some more fish because you paid for all you can eat. There's millions of examples, people get worked up because its an airplane. File this under "we're now dumber for having video of every little incident on earth". Why Perch? Fresh, yellow perch is fucking delicious. Seriously, try it if you haven't before.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2017 10:27:13 GMT -5
ISIS just released a video of them chopping off one ear each, of 33 of their own who fled the battlefield. Told them if they flee again that they will lose their other ear.
That seems like a really solid recruitment tool, and an even better morale booster.
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Post by agrappleaday on Apr 12, 2017 10:29:21 GMT -5
ISIS just released a video of them chopping off one ear each, of 33 of their own who fled the battlefield. Told them if they flee again that they will lose their other ear. That seems like a really solid recruitment tool, and an even better morale booster. My morale is boosted just having read this.
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Post by MMAJim on Apr 12, 2017 10:33:48 GMT -5
Basically what Johncfc said. It's great. I grew up around NE Wisconsin which has great perch in Green Bay (like the body of water) and lakes all over the area. Strangely enough in Mpls area, I can't find many perch fries (not that walleye isn't great as well).
Back to the cooler, don't get me wrong, United and all the airlines are laughably bad at handling these situations many times. I still think it is a certain amount of it that can be mitigated by your own planning and expectations. I mean, its a giant flying tube in the air, things happen. Weather, equipment, personnel, trying to maximize profits; there are lots of things that can throw it off. I travel enough for work to become immune to most of it but I can appreciate people who aren't accustomed to it getting more worked up or anxious about unexpected travel changes.
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Post by Baph on Apr 12, 2017 10:38:19 GMT -5
ISIS just released a video of them chopping off one ear each, of 33 of their own who fled the battlefield. Told them if they flee again that they will lose their other ear. That seems like a really solid recruitment tool, and an even better morale booster. Where do I sign up? Jesus. These nut bags . . . how the fuck do they not flame out over night? The ability to participate in war crimes seems to be the primary recruitment angle.
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Post by agrappleaday on Apr 12, 2017 10:48:53 GMT -5
Basically what Johncfc said. It's great. I grew up around NE Wisconsin which has great perch in Green Bay (like the body of water) and lakes all over the area. Strangely enough in Mpls area, I can't find many perch fries (not that walleye isn't great as well). Back to the cooler, don't get me wrong, United and all the airlines are laughably bad at handling these situations many times. I still think it is a certain amount of it that can be mitigated by your own planning and expectations. I mean, its a giant flying tube in the air, things happen. Weather, equipment, personnel, trying to maximize profits; there are lots of things that can throw it off. I travel enough for work to become immune to most of it but I can appreciate people who aren't accustomed to it getting more worked up or anxious about unexpected travel changes. I remember catching lots of perch in Michigan, along with many others like northern Pike which sucked to eat. We caught many perch and similar fish and fried them up. I was about 14 so I don't really remember how much I liked the taste, it was all about having fun and bringing in as many fish as possible at that time. I will give them a try the next chance I get. Back to the water cooler...
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Post by Baph on Apr 12, 2017 11:13:24 GMT -5
Did the "gender pay gap" coalition finally overplay it's hand?
Labor Dept charged Google with "systematic gender pay problems" and Google, who has a lot of computers and shit, did some analysis and found it to be completely false. The US Gov comparing apples to oranges, not accounting for time off, overtime, willingness to relocate, negotiating for raises, and aptitude, but Google does systematic comparison of 52 job categories and finds a 1.6% pay gap and they are fighting back (for PR reasons). This may be the Waterloo of that old 70 cents on the dollar battle cry.
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Post by PatSox on Apr 12, 2017 11:28:45 GMT -5
ISIS just released a video of them chopping off one ear each, of 33 of their own who fled the battlefield. Told them if they flee again that they will lose their other ear. That seems like a really solid recruitment tool, and an even better morale booster. To most, "I'm all ears" means, "I'm listening To ISIS it means...."I ain't no bitch, and I have both ears to prove it"
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Post by Angelo on Apr 12, 2017 11:29:18 GMT -5
Did the "gender pay gap" coalition finally overplay it's hand? Labor Dept charged Google with "systematic gender pay problems" and Google, who has a lot of computers and shit, did some analysis and found it to be completely false. The US Gov comparing apples to oranges, not accounting for time off, overtime, willingness to relocate, negotiating for raises, and aptitude, but Google does systematic comparison of 52 job categories and finds a 1.6% pay gap and they are fighting back (for PR reasons). This may be the Waterloo of that old 70 cents on the dollar battle cry. Ugh I always hated that 70-odd cents on the dollar gender pay gap. That # came from a comment in a study that showed there wasn't actually a systematic pay gap for hours worked since Reagan. I honestly always thought it was true until college when my women studies class had us go over methodology of sociological studies and media hysteria and reporting errors and how said reporting negatively affected the movement for equality. The major example we were taught was actually the lack of gender pay gap, and that it was always reported as being there because of a comment in the study talking about what would happen if you adjusted the #s to consider various scenarios. However in all those scenarios it drops to 70ish by choice not because of their gender, and only in relation to not taking a promotion/other qualified job, or cutting hours for family, or marking 0$/hr for the unpaid portion of maternity leave (which was more common then than it is now)
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Post by Angelo on Apr 12, 2017 11:30:07 GMT -5
ISIS just released a video of them chopping off one ear each, of 33 of their own who fled the battlefield. Told them if they flee again that they will lose their other ear. That seems like a really solid recruitment tool, and an even better morale booster.
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Post by Baph on Apr 12, 2017 11:32:09 GMT -5
ISIS just released a video of them chopping off one ear each, of 33 of their own who fled the battlefield. Told them if they flee again that they will lose their other ear. That seems like a really solid recruitment tool, and an even better morale booster. To most, "I'm all ears" means, "I'm listening To ISIS it means...."I ain't no bitch, and I have both ears to prove it" Ears are the new balls.
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Post by matt on Apr 12, 2017 13:00:28 GMT -5
Instagram is great for meeting Russian chicks and hot, bored married women...
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Post by PatSox on Apr 12, 2017 13:05:09 GMT -5
Instagram is great for meeting Russian chicks and hot, bored married women... Maybe just don't lead off with, "would you like to pee on me?" Work your way up to it
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Post by ocmmafan on Apr 12, 2017 14:23:31 GMT -5
Overselling happens in the hotel industry as well. You are "guaranteed" a room yet they are oversold when you arrive. When it happens, they will place you in another hotel that is hopefully a similar class and close in proximty. They pay for the transfers to the hotel and whatever else you can squeeze out of them (maybe dinner). Yeah, it sucks and it's terrible when you are traveling with kids and arriving late - but it happens. What adults do is suck it up and handle it. It's exactly the same situation as this plane situation and is an interruption to you schedule. The compensation is monetary (flight credit, free hotel stay, etc). 99.9% of the time the compensation works. Every adult that flies (adult - not fucking jackel) knows about planes bumping people. I bet many of us have volunteered. This isn't new, MOST love it, and it's the reality of these service industries that are trying to maximize profit in a highly competitive field. Obviously United handled it poorly because they could have come up with a number that would have satisfied someone AND explained they would put them up in a hotel, pay for their dinner and some extra per diem, and give them a $800-$1200 flight credit and the next available flight tomorrow. Start the process an hour before the flight like most airlines do and start getting volunteers early. But still, all that said, the doctor handled it like a child and will now be rewarded for his behavior. Hard to feel sorry for that pussy given all the circumstances. Best part of this is seeing snowflakes blaming Trump. I laughed pretty good at a few of these freaks claiming "this is what happens with Trump in the whitehouse"! But it wasn't a overbook (as someone said earlier), They wanted to move their employees. Why couldn't those employees take a later flight?
I have never been bumped from a flight, Yeah I've been asked a couple times but I never did it. Flight credit?? Screw that, you want my ticket you will pay me cash just like I did when I bought it.
Overall it was just very bad management on United.
The bottom line is the airline gets to decide who flies and they decide who has priority, and ANYONE can be bumped from a flight. Overbooking, overselling, needing seats for their own reasons - ot's irrelevant. They get to decide and that's how it works. If United doesn't bump the doctor, and it appears it was too late to get other flights for the doctor or the other united workers, then United may have had to cancel the flight the following day where those United employees were needed. That's why the employees couldn't take a later flight - there wasn't one. United decided that an inconvenience to a traveler that night was better than cancelling a flight the next day, something I am sure all the people on that flight would agree with. Physically throwing the dude off? Yeah, that going to cost them and is a PR nightmare, but eventually someone was coming off that plane. Two issues seem to be 1) the fairness of booting him off when he had a ticket; 2) the process for booting him. I agree #2 was a shit show. For #1, I know airlines can bump any of us so I personally wouldn't act like a little bitch and cry about it and if I did want to complain, would have done it another way. They are never going to pay out cash - they still fly you and honor the ticket purchased. For the inconvenience of delaying you they offer you travel vouchers. When flights are delayed for reasons they deem outside their control (like weather)? You sit and you wait and you get nothing.
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Post by Baph on Apr 12, 2017 15:17:55 GMT -5
Can you imagine being asked to leave a flight, offered $10,000 in vouchers, and then screaming like a child and going limp to make them drag you? You, sir, are fishing for a winning lottery ticket in the form of a settlement.
Everyone over-books. Hotels, planes, trains, even gyms. If everyone who had a Planet Fitness membership actually showed up, the fire marshal would shut the place down for occupancy violations. The entire business model is built upon the expectation that 25% of your members never show up.
99.9% of the general population would have complied, even if it was merely out of social pressure, taken the voucher, and deboarded. They found the one guy who was willing to go nuclear over it and were too intellectually rigid to adjust the in-fight strategy.
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Post by Angelo on Apr 12, 2017 15:42:11 GMT -5
Everyone over-books. Hotels, planes, trains, even gyms. If everyone who had a Planet Fitness membership actually showed up, the fire marshal would shut the place down for occupancy violations. The entire business model is built upon the expectation that 25% of your members never show up. Yes, but that is the risk you take, that everyone will show up. You know it is very very unlikely to happen, so you take the risk. Yeah business should run the way they want to run, but they shouldn't sell more than they have without the risk of it blowing back on them. Hell look at what happens if you go long on a contract and it expires, you have to take delivery. If you take a risk, you deal with the consequences, and should not be able to write into an agreement anything that eliminates all that risk.
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Post by Baph on Apr 12, 2017 15:54:57 GMT -5
Everyone over-books. Hotels, planes, trains, even gyms. If everyone who had a Planet Fitness membership actually showed up, the fire marshal would shut the place down for occupancy violations. The entire business model is built upon the expectation that 25% of your members never show up. Yes, but that is the risk you take, that everyone will show up. You know it is very very unlikely to happen, so you take the risk. Yeah business should run the way they want to run, but they shouldn't sell more than they have without the risk of it blowing back on them. Hell look at what happens if you go long on a contract and it expires, you have to take delivery. If you take a risk, you deal with the consequences, and should not be able to write into an agreement anything that eliminates all that risk. I don't think anybody would disagree with that. It's common practice, there is a small risk, there are contingency plans, this one happened to randomly select a drug smuggling bisexual sociopath and the crew/manager was too incompetent to audible.
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Post by Baph on Apr 12, 2017 21:41:51 GMT -5
American Airlines stock valuation down $1.4 Billion since the incident . . . and people still say the market can't regulate society. Fucking immediate and ruthless corrections to corporate abuses far more effective than any bullshit bill they could ever write.
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Post by mmaphreak on Apr 12, 2017 23:44:26 GMT -5
Overselling happens in the hotel industry as well. You are "guaranteed" a room yet they are oversold when you arrive. When it happens, they will place you in another hotel that is hopefully a similar class and close in proximty. They pay for the transfers to the hotel and whatever else you can squeeze out of them (maybe dinner). Yeah, it sucks and it's terrible when you are traveling with kids and arriving late - but it happens. What adults do is suck it up and handle it. It's exactly the same situation as this plane situation and is an interruption to you schedule. The compensation is monetary (flight credit, free hotel stay, etc). 99.9% of the time the compensation works. Every adult that flies (adult - not fucking jackel) knows about planes bumping people. I bet many of us have volunteered. This isn't new, MOST love it, and it's the reality of these service industries that are trying to maximize profit in a highly competitive field. Obviously United handled it poorly because they could have come up with a number that would have satisfied someone AND explained they would put them up in a hotel, pay for their dinner and some extra per diem, and give them a $800-$1200 flight credit and the next available flight tomorrow. Start the process an hour before the flight like most airlines do and start getting volunteers early. But still, all that said, the doctor handled it like a child and will now be rewarded for his behavior. Hard to feel sorry for that pussy given all the circumstances. Best part of this is seeing snowflakes blaming Trump. I laughed pretty good at a few of these freaks claiming "this is what happens with Trump in the whitehouse"! But it wasn't a overbook (as someone said earlier), They wanted to move their employees. Why couldn't those employees take a later flight?
I have never been bumped from a flight, Yeah I've been asked a couple times but I never did it. Flight credit?? Screw that, you want my ticket you will pay me cash just like I did when I bought it.
Overall it was just very bad management on United.
it was a flight crew that needed to be at another location so the people on that flight didn't get screwed. it's a tremendous trickle down effect if they don't get the crew they need for the flight. so the consensus seems to be "guy was a jackass, but united handled it poorly. they should have ponied up more dough until someone took the offer." well i hope you're willing to put your money where you mouth is. if airlines A, B, and C decide they're going to change their policy because of this fiasco and the end result is that flights will cost more to cover for the additional monies paid to people who get bumped, are you willing to pay more to fly A, B, and C, while airline D keeps the old policy and lower cost flights? i have ZERO sympathy for the guy. read the fine print when you click "buy". ALL airlines have this policy. it's federal law. if nobody takes the initial offer and your number gets called, just get off the damn plane and take the involuntary bump money. this is just more snowflake "the rules don't apply to me" bullshit. fuck that guy.
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Post by Angelo on Apr 13, 2017 0:30:42 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 8:02:59 GMT -5
Baph is correct that both parties are fucking retarded. Dude should have gotten off the plane if his number was called, and probably saw an opportunity at a good lawsuit.
United has to be smarter in the age of cell phones and social media though. What's right or wrong matters far less than appearances. That there wasn't one employee around smart enough to say "gee, there are about 30 passengers recording this with their cell phone" boggles my mind. Then again half the crew's mind immediately went to "hey this may end up on World Star, I can be famous!"
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Post by daywork on Apr 13, 2017 10:05:14 GMT -5
But it wasn't a overbook (as someone said earlier), They wanted to move their employees. Why couldn't those employees take a later flight?
I have never been bumped from a flight, Yeah I've been asked a couple times but I never did it. Flight credit?? Screw that, you want my ticket you will pay me cash just like I did when I bought it.
Overall it was just very bad management on United.
it was a flight crew that needed to be at another location so the people on that flight didn't get screwed. it's a tremendous trickle down effect if they don't get the crew they need for the flight. so the consensus seems to be "guy was a jackass, but united handled it poorly. they should have ponied up more dough until someone took the offer." well i hope you're willing to put your money where you mouth is. if airlines A, B, and C decide they're going to change their policy because of this fiasco and the end result is that flights will cost more to cover for the additional monies paid to people who get bumped, are you willing to pay more to fly A, B, and C, while airline D keeps the old policy and lower cost flights? i have ZERO sympathy for the guy. read the fine print when you click "buy". ALL airlines have this policy. it's federal law. if nobody takes the initial offer and your number gets called, just get off the damn plane and take the involuntary bump money. this is just more snowflake "the rules don't apply to me" bullshit. fuck that guy. NO I'm not willing to pay more for the airlines fuck ups. You don't need to bump people off a flight if you did your scheduling correctly. I don't pay for someone elses mistakes. They pay for their mistakes. But I will pay more if the service is better then other companies.
If a flight is delayed or canceled do to weather. I have no problem with that. That is out of their hands. But scheduling is absolutely in their hands.
The reason I said give me the cash. Is because I'm not going to use your shitty service. I will use a different airline to get to where I'm going. I want a refund. They couldn't keep their end up of the agreement. Well now I'm not going to keep my end up and I'll use someone else.
But maybe I just expect to much from companies.
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Post by Baph on Apr 13, 2017 10:35:55 GMT -5
This dude's attorney is on TV right now talking about the city of Chicago being liable as well as United Airlines, the victim is traumatized, has a concussion, may need reconstructive surgery, and they're seeking millions.
Some more wrinkles emerging: union rules don't allow United staff to work beyond a certain amount of hours in a given week, and these crew were vital to keeping whole other flights on schedule. The NTSA limits compensation for removal at $1,350. Again, the company is controlled by regulations on both ends of this deal. Hands are tied. The flight was not overbooked. This was essentially a staffing emergency with the company, which is the largest carrier in the US.
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Post by daywork on Apr 13, 2017 11:49:14 GMT -5
This dude's attorney is on TV right now talking about the city of Chicago being liable as well as United Airlines, the victim is traumatized, has a concussion, may need reconstructive surgery, and they're seeking millions. Some more wrinkles emerging: union rules don't allow United staff to work beyond a certain amount of hours in a given week, and these crew were vital to keeping whole other flights on schedule. The NTSA limits compensation for removal at $1,350. Again, the company is controlled by regulations on both ends of this deal. Hands are tied. The flight was not overbooked. This was essentially a staffing emergency with the company, which is the largest carrier in the US. LOL Yeah the guy is an ass. Chicago being liable is just BS. They didn't beat his ass that bad. They drug him out of his seat. I hope he loses those lawsuits.
Unions. I don't like them but that is a whole different discussion.
Yeah, it was a staffing issue. Something United was in control of. Someone did a bad job in scheduling where and when to send employees.
This guy is just making everything a hell of a lot worse.
I think both parties handled this badly. Just my opinion.
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Post by Baph on Apr 13, 2017 13:14:08 GMT -5
This dude's attorney is on TV right now talking about the city of Chicago being liable as well as United Airlines, the victim is traumatized, has a concussion, may need reconstructive surgery, and they're seeking millions. Some more wrinkles emerging: union rules don't allow United staff to work beyond a certain amount of hours in a given week, and these crew were vital to keeping whole other flights on schedule. The NTSA limits compensation for removal at $1,350. Again, the company is controlled by regulations on both ends of this deal. Hands are tied. The flight was not overbooked. This was essentially a staffing emergency with the company, which is the largest carrier in the US. LOL Yeah the guy is an ass. Chicago being liable is just BS. They didn't beat his ass that bad. They drug him out of his seat. I hope he loses those lawsuits.
Unions. I don't like them but that is a whole different discussion.
Yeah, it was a staffing issue. Something United was in control of. Someone did a bad job in scheduling where and when to send employees.
This guy is just making everything a hell of a lot worse.
I think both parties handled this badly. Just my opinion.
Apparently it wasn't even a United staffing issue, but a smaller carrier with a personnel crunch, Republic Air, I think, and United was just doing them a solid.
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Post by Angelo on Apr 13, 2017 13:49:26 GMT -5
This dude's attorney is on TV right now talking about the city of Chicago being liable as well as United Airlines, the victim is traumatized, has a concussion, may need reconstructive surgery, and they're seeking millions. Some more wrinkles emerging: union rules don't allow United staff to work beyond a certain amount of hours in a given week, and these crew were vital to keeping whole other flights on schedule. The NTSA limits compensation for removal at $1,350. Again, the company is controlled by regulations on both ends of this deal. Hands are tied. The flight was not overbooked. This was essentially a staffing emergency with the company, which is the largest carrier in the US. LOL Yeah the guy is an ass. Chicago being liable is just BS. They didn't beat his ass that bad. They drug him out of his seat. I hope he loses those lawsuits.
Broken nose, lost 2 teeth, and got a concussion. Also looks like United violated the laws on how you are allowed to remove a customer in such a case. They just fucked up all around.
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Post by daywork on Apr 13, 2017 13:54:30 GMT -5
LOL Yeah the guy is an ass. Chicago being liable is just BS. They didn't beat his ass that bad. They drug him out of his seat. I hope he loses those lawsuits.
Unions. I don't like them but that is a whole different discussion.
Yeah, it was a staffing issue. Something United was in control of. Someone did a bad job in scheduling where and when to send employees.
This guy is just making everything a hell of a lot worse.
I think both parties handled this badly. Just my opinion.
Apparently it wasn't even a United staffing issue, but a smaller carrier with a personnel crunch, Republic Air, I think, and United was just doing them a solid. Oh shit. Well that sucks for them. So they were just trying to help someone else out and all of this happened. Really bad luck
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Post by johncfc on Apr 13, 2017 13:56:32 GMT -5
LOL Yeah the guy is an ass. Chicago being liable is just BS. They didn't beat his ass that bad. They drug him out of his seat. I hope he loses those lawsuits.
Broken nose, lost 2 teeth, and got a concussion. Also looks like United violated the laws on how you are allowed to remove a customer in such a case. They just fucked up all around. Sauce?
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Post by daywork on Apr 13, 2017 13:57:58 GMT -5
LOL Yeah the guy is an ass. Chicago being liable is just BS. They didn't beat his ass that bad. They drug him out of his seat. I hope he loses those lawsuits.
Broken nose, lost 2 teeth, and got a concussion. Also looks like United violated the laws on how you are allowed to remove a customer in such a case. They just fucked up all around. Oh damn. I guess I was way wrong.
I misspoke, I shouldn't have opened my mouth and said shit about something I really had no idea what was going on. I apologize.
But I still don't see how Chicago is liable.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 15:09:21 GMT -5
That doctor dragged off the United flight is a whiny, phony bitch with a really shady past. As others have correctly posted, overbooking is rampant in the travel industry and perfectly OK. The "inconvenience" to passengers is handled by offering good compensation for it. This doctor chose to be an asshole; too bad. Apparently it wasn't his first time.
United had an unexpected need to fly a few employees elsewhere; hence the bump. You could criticize their lack of foresight I suppose, but was it, really? After all, snafus and emergency staffing problems DO happen.
In 1990, I had booked my wife and I on a 4-day Bahamas cruise during the Christmas - New Year's time frame. Three days before I was scheduled to sail from Miami, FL, on a Monday afternoon, they called me on my last workday of 1990, which was of course a Friday:
Oops, they had overbooked. They regretted the inconvenience...but, WOULD I ACCEPT A COMPLETELY FREE CRUISE TO THE SAME DESTINATION....but was departing in TWO days (a Sunday rather than Monday)? Remember, it was ALREADY late Friday.
I had paid slightly more than $2K for this cruise (yeah they've gotten cheaper since).
The only "catch" was that I had to depart from MI almost immediately after work that night....in order to drive more than 1400 miles in less than two days.
So I said F*CK YEAH, then covered the 1400 miles in about 22 hours and we got our FREE cruise. I figured I earned nearly $100 per hour (who said ya can't make good money driving?) enjoyed the cruise and everybody was happy, including the cruise line.
Somehow, I think I handled it much better than our latest social-media "victim". LOL...
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