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Post by nickcage on Sept 22, 2016 23:12:11 GMT -5
Pretty sure the taser went off at the same time the gun did. Well I'm deaf, I thought I heard the shot while he was laying there, but if that is the case, that's even worse. You have a trained officer feeling a taser is enough, and another they need to discharged their firearm. That shows issues with training. She fucked herself. She will go to jail. She advised in her affidavit that she had cleared the car before he walked back to it. She deserves what's coming her way.
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Post by Baph on Sept 22, 2016 23:33:04 GMT -5
Expect to see some form of conviction in the Tulsa deal. Tulsa has a sordid past with race riots (google it you lazy fuck-sticks), and will go out of it's way to appear to make an example here.
Having said that, I spoke with a quasi-insider today who said the dude was A) well known to police, a massive degenerate, drug/alcohol addict, violent, ex-con, outstanding warrants, the whole nine, and B) was clearly yacked on something hard, likely PCP. Car in the middle of the road, not making any sense, weird gestures, possibly hallucinating, staring with an evil grin as cops yell to "stop, get on your knees" repeatedly, he's just poker faced, doesn't budge, then turns and walks off casually back to the car, ignoring 4-5 more commands to stop, then one hand goes in his pocket the other hand goes toward window or tries to open door, taser goes off at her left flank, girl panics and shoots (possibly jumpy from taser discharge), dude is dead in 20 seconds.
Still a bad kill, IMO, but certainly more complexity to the situation that what's being reported, as per usual. This is a rubber bullets situation, but if the rumor mill is true, this was never going to end clean, regardless.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 7:07:52 GMT -5
My guess is there won't be a trial in Tulsa. She will plead to man 2 or 3 and get probation. There is that bullshit called mandatory minimums. I'd be interested in hearing just how much you actually KNOW about mandatory minimums for manslaughter in OK.
Voluntary? Involuntary? Educate us, Jackel.
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Post by slaytan on Sept 23, 2016 7:10:55 GMT -5
She shouldn't be charged with anything whatsoever. Women shouldn't be cops, but that's besides the point. At worst she should receive a counsel statement in her file.
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Post by Angelo on Sept 23, 2016 10:45:15 GMT -5
There is that bullshit called mandatory minimums. I'd be interested in hearing just how much you actually KNOW about mandatory minimums for manslaughter in OK.
Voluntary? Involuntary? Educate us, Jackel.
For what they are charging her with, four years according to pretty much every article. Regardless of it is is 1 minute or 100 years, I disagree with mandatory minimums.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 13:08:50 GMT -5
That Tulsa thing, I keep seeing people only talk about how he's a black man. They kinda failed to include the most important part, IMO. Yeah, the shooting officer was white. A white woman who was dealing with a non complying, 300lb, whacked-out-on-PCP (do we not forget how the same drug had Rodney King trying to constantly get up while four or five grown ass MEN were beating him down?), man who happened to be black. I'd imagine she was pretty scared.
Couple that with his actions, going back to his car, and then reaching for something- I understand why she would react as she did.
There's a reason they don't let you go back to your car.
The cop in this video died.
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Post by javier on Sept 23, 2016 14:23:13 GMT -5
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Post by Angelo on Sept 23, 2016 14:31:09 GMT -5
That Tulsa thing, Couple that with his actions, going back to his car, and then reaching for something- I understand why she would react as she did. There's a reason they don't let you go back to your car. First off, he did not have access to his car. He was surrounded, the windows up, and the door closed. Second off, as nickcage said earlier, she said that she cleared the car before the incident. Anyways interesting news to further remind cops of their limitations, Massachusetts Supreme Court is basically reminding them that an investigatory stop cannot be based off a hunch, and someone running from the police doesn't not meet reasonable suspicion that they have or will commit a crime.
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Post by sessoms on Sept 23, 2016 18:10:49 GMT -5
Police definitely don't lie as much as black "victims". Name one time in the last 2 years where the black victims family/friends actually told a story that didn't get proved wrong or exaggerated. All that I am saying is that the blacks don't have a good track record of truth, so knowing that lets at least let the story play out before we decide that this is a race based killing of a completely innocent person. Why are you diverging away from the facts? Unarmed black men are being murdered by racist bigoted police officers, while terrorists are being walked off unharmed. Black men kill way more black men than police officers ever dreamed of dude. Wake up hell look at Chicago the murder rate and 90% if not more is black on black crime.
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Post by sessoms on Sept 23, 2016 18:14:06 GMT -5
The killing in Tulsa wasn't justified but the one in Charlotte close to my home will be watch and see. The dudes family stirred up a bunch of shit. Even went as far saying it was a white coo in the beginning and the black cop didn't show till after the shooting.
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Post by Baph on Sept 23, 2016 22:05:06 GMT -5
New video out of the Carolina shooting. The wife is just feet away, screaming at the cops that he's got a "TBI - traumatic brain injury" and just took his meds. Um, so why does he have a gun then? You hear about 15 commands to "drop it" and "don't do it" and then they start trying to bash his window and he gets out and comes toward them and 5-6 shots rattle off. It appears . . . *appears* . . . you may have a mentally disturbed dude with a gun behaving in a weird, almost suicidal way.
Tulsa situation not totally dissimilar. Troubled guy, on meds/drugs, behaving bizarrely, ignoring a dozen commands, cops panic and shoot.
Look, sure, plenty of criticism to go around, no doubt, but if this is the systemic racism I was warned about I gotta admit, I'm not impressed. You got multiple guns drawn on you, get 15 commands to stop, and you decide to mean mug everybody and make shifty moves . . . dude, WTF you think is gonna happen?
Can police get better at de-escilation, conflict resolution, operating within constitutional boundaries, being generally less aggressive? Ab-so-fucking-lutely. Can black culture get better at . . . everything? Yus. x 10,000.
Are we seeing any real leadership in either community? If we are, I'm missing it. Unfortunately, for both communities, we've had someone in an incredibly good position to provide leadership for the past 8 years that's failed utterly to improve the situation and instead, miraculously, managed to aggravate the whole scene.
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Post by sbsbsbsb on Sept 23, 2016 22:29:30 GMT -5
It turns out the guy in Charlotte had done time for.......
......wait for it......
......firing a gun at police officers in 2005. Surprise.
"The most shocking find in Scott’s record, however, is what occurred in Bexar County, Texas in 2005. In March of that year, Scott was sentenced to 15 months in state prison for evading arrest, and in July, he was consecutively sentenced to seven years on a conviction of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon…
One source, who asked CTN to refrain from using her name to protect her identity, told reporters that Scott fired a handgun at San Antonio police officers when they attempted to detain him in February 2005 after noticing that he was driving erratically."
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Post by ocmmafan on Sept 23, 2016 22:34:22 GMT -5
Did they ever say what "book" he was reading?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 22:38:49 GMT -5
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Post by Baph on Sept 23, 2016 22:45:37 GMT -5
I know this is a stupid question and is mostly rhetorical but if a cop stops you WHY THE FUCK DON'T YOU COMPLY? There are plenty of valid reasons not to comply and police over-step their legal bounds all the time.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 22:49:09 GMT -5
Are you saying that it is ok to disobey police orders?
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Post by sbsbsbsb on Sept 23, 2016 22:49:42 GMT -5
And for Baph, regarding leadership on the law enforcement side: youtu.be/aIc4gsODV-wDavid Clarke seems to have the most consistent and sober view on what's been going on since Ferguson. He's been outspoken on the issue and has done interviews on both right leaning shows and hostile left leaning shows. He spoke at the RNC convention and I wouldn't be surprised if Trump invites him to serve in some capacity in his administration.
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Post by JROD on Sept 23, 2016 23:04:14 GMT -5
The time to fight the oppressive tyrannical system is NOT when some poorly trained nitwit with a badge and a gun is telling you to keep your hands visible and to calm down.
There are lawyers and judges for that.
Although I'm a certified LEO and have carried a badge at various times, I'm in Baph's camp for the most part. I just think during a time when cops are operating under the premise that certain citizens are legitimately out to kill them, it isn't in your best interest to go all "liberty or death" with them.
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Post by ocmmafan on Sept 23, 2016 23:15:28 GMT -5
Are you saying that it is ok to disobey police orders? It's one thing to be a sober driver and question the legality of cops stopping you at a DUI checkpoint. if you want to express your rights go for it. Entirely different situation to ignore or disobey a direct command from a LEO during the commission of a crime or when you are armed. That's what Obama, Loretta Lynch and every black leader should be expressing to people and TELL them to assert your rights after the fact. Almost everything is being filmed so you'll get your time and place to claim the LEO is wrong but you'll be alive to do it. But if you have a gun and find yourself in a situation where a LEO is requesting your compliance, you have to comply. I have the authority to carry anywhere in the US whenever I want and I sure as fck respect the authority and am very, very careful if I ever find myself off-duty and have any form of LEO encounter. Also, being respectful and compliant may be a hard pill for some prideful people to swallow, but it's almost always going to be make for a better situation.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 23:22:07 GMT -5
The time to fight the oppressive tyrannical system is NOT when some poorly trained nitwit with a badge and a gun is telling you to keep your hands visible and to calm down. There are lawyers and judges for that. Although I'm a certified LEO and have carried a badge at various times, I'm in Baph's camp for the most part. I just think during a time when cops are operating under the premise that certain citizens are legitimately out to kill them, it isn't in your best interest to go all "liberty or death" with them. These are my thoughts. And maybe I'm just a wimp. But if someone with a badge and gun orders me to do something, regardless of how I feel about it, I'm going to do it. Because ultimately, it could mean my life. I cannot understand, for the life of me, with everything going on out there, why, especially a black man, would not just comply.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 23:25:41 GMT -5
Are you saying that it is ok to disobey police orders? It's one thing to be a sober driver and question the legality of cops stopping you at a DUI checkpoint. if you want to express your rights go for it. Entirely different situation to ignore or disobey a direct command from a LEO during the commission of a crime or when you are armed. That's what Obama, Loretta Lynch and every black leader should be expressing to people and TELL them to assert your rights after the fact. Almost everything is being filmed so you'll get your time and place to claim the LEO is wrong but you'll be alive to do it. But if you have a gun and find yourself in a situation where a LEO is requesting your compliance, you have to comply. I have the authority to carry anywhere in the US whenever I want and I sure as fck respect the authority and am very, very careful if I ever find myself off-duty and have any form of LEO encounter. Also, being respectful and compliant may be a hard pill for some prideful people to swallow, but it's almost always going to be make for a better situation. That, I just don't understand. Being respectful and compliant is something that should be given to anyone in authority, whether you agree with them or not. It seems like an odd argument to me. This shit has become life or death for black people. I don't think any of us can deny that. I just don't understand why they continue to act out like this. It baffles the hell out of me.
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Post by Baph on Sept 23, 2016 23:40:45 GMT -5
Nobody has authority to give you an unlawful order, to violate your constitutional rights to privacy, security, speech, assembly, arms, etc. We can discuss how wise certain behaviors and tactics are, but police infringing on individual sovereignty happens with disgusting regularity and this imagined obligation to cower to the ego of some glorified frat boy because he got CLEET certified is part of the problem -- we're not doing our share of the checks and balances bit that keeps this thing on the tracks.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 23:55:24 GMT -5
I see your point, Baph. I suppose my view is reactionary to what is going on out there. Obey first ask questions later. Particularly because their view point seems to be shoot first ask questions later.
Here is another thing, I imagine that I am pretty ignorant of what my rights actually are. Not stopping during a DUI checkpoint is something I have never considered an option. Plus, my view is if I am not under the influence I have nothing to worry about. Maybe that's my white privilege speaking.
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Post by JROD on Sept 23, 2016 23:56:39 GMT -5
Nobody has authority to give you an unlawful order, to violate your constitutional rights to privacy, security, speech, assembly, arms, etc. We can discuss how wise certain behaviors and tactics are, but police infringing on individual sovereignty happens with disgusting regularity and this imagined obligation to cower to the ego of some glorified frat boy because he got CLEET certified is part of the problem -- we're not doing our share of the checks and balances bit that keeps this thing on the tracks. I don't disagree with a single thing in your post. A portion of our LEOs are abusing their authority and are extremely condescending with citizens. Their poor understanding of the law also plays a part in giving unlawful orders that violate the Constitution. I'm as "Gadsden Flag" as anyone could possibly be, but I'm not about to start shit while interacting with Barney Fife. And I wouldn't even dream of being a cock if I was black...
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Post by Angelo on Sept 24, 2016 1:06:42 GMT -5
Are you saying that it is ok to disobey police orders? The courts say that, if the situation is right of course. But as many has pointed out, better to let them violate your rights and sue them later than get shot and be painted as a thug now.
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Post by Baph on Sept 24, 2016 1:57:24 GMT -5
Are you saying that it is ok to disobey police orders? The courts say that, if the situation is right of course. But as many has pointed out, better to let them violate your rights and sue them later than get shot and be painted as a thug now. Absolutely. Dying on the side of a road over a pissing contest is about as senseless as sending Jackal a job application. I've got a wife and two very young kids. I've probably got a long and interesting life ahead of me. And I'm fully savvy enough to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. A hot head at a traffic stop is not this generation's version of 1776. That's amateur hour at the checkers club. As great of a story as it'd make to see my spectacular death on a grainy dash cam vid, I'd much rather raise my sons and fuck my wife and squat twice a week until the wheels fall off. There are strategic, intelligent, relatively safe ways to make your point, to push back, to curtail the creep of police militarization and excess. In some ways, the enemy of my enemy comes into play here as the menthol smokers at BLM are doing a lot of the dirty work for us in terms of broaching the issue and getting some muscle on the scrutiny/oversight/accountability side of the equation. The term useful idiots comes to mind, but right now I'm happy to focus on the useful part of the phrase and roll my eyes at the rest. A bunch of lazy degenerates who can't farm, hunt, shoot, camp, communicate, employ technology, or control resources is about as much a threat to me as low T is. Philosophical and practical are two different arguments.
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Post by Baph on Sept 24, 2016 1:59:43 GMT -5
Nobody has authority to give you an unlawful order, to violate your constitutional rights to privacy, security, speech, assembly, arms, etc. We can discuss how wise certain behaviors and tactics are, but police infringing on individual sovereignty happens with disgusting regularity and this imagined obligation to cower to the ego of some glorified frat boy because he got CLEET certified is part of the problem -- we're not doing our share of the checks and balances bit that keeps this thing on the tracks. I wouldn't even dream of being a cock if I was black... Tell that to Alton.
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Post by Baph on Sept 24, 2016 21:53:36 GMT -5
Interesting enough . . . and this is exactly why you don't rush to conclusions . . . the general consensus on both cases has flip-flopped now, and the Tulsa shooting is looking murky while the Carolina shooting is looking like a straight up execution with a possible gun plant because half-a-dozen roid raging frat boys in swat gear wanted to hassle a dude they "suspected of marijuana use" and he behaved weirdly rather than throw himself at their feet. Dash cam is out today and it looks BAD.
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Post by Ep on Sept 24, 2016 22:59:40 GMT -5
What I don't fully understand is why the officers we hear about shoot to kill as opposed to shooting to neutralize. They managed to disable that piece of pig shit Ahmad Rahani in New Jersey, and he was armed, but they brought him in alive. So, I've seem that question posed quite a bit. I think I can help put here. Q: Why were the officers able to take in Rahani but black people get shot? A: Perhaps the reason is that it was a totally different scenario in a different place at a different time with different officers and every single thing was unique and different because that's actually how shit is. Different. We always need to classify and categorize and the to find links. Sometimes there are no links. Sometimes 59k black people get pulled over and 20 get killed and 49, 980 don't and that's not a link. That's just shitty that 20 people got killed. And nothing more. Our society is fucking retarded.
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Post by sessoms on Sept 25, 2016 11:11:57 GMT -5
What I don't fully understand is why the officers we hear about shoot to kill as opposed to shooting to neutralize. They managed to disable that piece of pig shit Ahmad Rahani in New Jersey, and he was armed, but they brought him in alive. So, I've seem that question posed quite a bit. I think I can help put here. Q: Why were the officers able to take in Rahani but black people get shot? A: Perhaps the reason is that it was a totally different scenario in a different place at a different time with different officers and every single thing was unique and different because that's actually how shit is. Different. We always need to classify and categorize and the to find links. Sometimes there are no links. Sometimes 59k black people get pulled over and 20 get killed and 49, 980 don't and that's not a link. That's just shitty that 20 people got killed. And nothing more. Our society is fucking retarded. I totally agree with Ep here every situation is different. One thing I say is I bet if you put 9/10 civilians in these situations they would make the same decision. I wouldn't want to be in that situation where I have to make a split second decision that could cost someone their life or possibly mine.
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