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Post by jamesod on Jan 9, 2017 11:31:20 GMT -5
Aren't you conflating a number of issues? Goddamnit you made me look up the exact meaning of "conflate". Then my work here is done.
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Post by Baph on Jan 9, 2017 11:33:41 GMT -5
Did people think other countries weren't actively trying to influence every election we've ever had since before this was even a country?
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Post by matt on Jan 9, 2017 11:38:44 GMT -5
These Democrat socialists are worse than any conspiracy theorist...haha. Where is the evidence? ? Where is the evidence of a "hack" With the way clinton and her friends openly disobeyed protocol, I don't doubt that her personal devices as well as the DNC mainframe server was hacked by multiple entities...but...wheres the evidence? Oh, so the 17 intelligence agencies all say Russia is responsible for the hack, yet these agencies made that determination without even inspecting the DNC servers, and the DNC denied the fbi's request to inspect the servers...so where is the evidence that a "hack" even took place. These same 17 intelligence agencies that claim Russia hacked us, are the same 17 intelligence agencies who swore up and down that saddam hussein was making WMD's when he was actually just hiding in a hole. And let's not forget the fact that the people still voted based on the candidates political platforms... Hilary was running for president on a socialist platform, and the citizens chose trump's finacnial platform instead, regardless of how dumd, callous and inept the Democrats are.
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Post by matt on Jan 9, 2017 11:47:25 GMT -5
Is anyone arguing that they would rather have the information that was leaked remain private and all of us played like pawns? Why are we not happy that corrupt politicians were exposed as the deviant assholes that we always knew they were? Why are we debating who/what/why, when we should be applauding the person/group that made this public? This is not a right/left thing either... we should have been equally as happy if Trump was caught with his pants down prior to the election, so we can actually vote on the truth and reality, not the facade that they put on. No one I know is arguing that, and I know a ton of liberals. I think one can be both happy to have learned exactly how fucking corrupt the DNC is while being unhappy at the thought of the Russians systematically trying to influence our election. Those aren't mutually exclusive opinions. I shouldn't have to tell a lawyer this, but there's no evidence to your claims.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2017 12:11:51 GMT -5
They might not be mutually exclusive options, but they have significantly different implications.
I take the position that I've heard several others take as well. If the DNC weren't so corrupt in the first place, the Russians wouldn't have had jack shit to use as ammo for their attempted influencing. But the DNC gave them the ability via being both corrupt AND inept enough to have their corruption completely exposed.
Sure, it bothers me a little bit that some foreign power was able to infiltrate such a powerful organization in our nation's political sphere. But what that powerful organization's top people were doing bothers me A LOT.
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Post by ocmmafan on Jan 9, 2017 12:33:21 GMT -5
They might not be mutually exclusive options, but they have significantly different implications. I take the position that I've heard several others take as well. If the DNC weren't so corrupt in the first place, the Russians wouldn't have had jack shit to use as ammo for their attempted influencing. But the DNC gave them the ability via being both corrupt AND inept enough to have their corruption completely exposed. Sure, it bothers me a little bit that some foreign power was able to infiltrate such a powerful organization in our nation's political sphere. But what that powerful organization's top people were doing bothers me A LOT. We still have zero proof it was the Russians. We have an admission from Asange who leaked the KEY info that it wasn't the Russians. So at best, the snowflakes can't even be confident their argument even has legs.
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Post by ocmmafan on Jan 9, 2017 12:34:17 GMT -5
No one I know is arguing that, and I know a ton of liberals. I think one can be both happy to have learned exactly how fucking corrupt the DNC is while being unhappy at the thought of the Russians systematically trying to influence our election. Those aren't mutually exclusive opinions. I shouldn't have to tell a lawyer this, but there's no evidence to your claims. Seems like we are the only ones paying attention, lol.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2017 12:40:30 GMT -5
Is anyone arguing that they would rather have the information that was leaked remain private and all of us played like pawns? Why are we not happy that corrupt politicians were exposed as the deviant assholes that we always knew they were? Why are we debating who/what/why, when we should be applauding the person/group that made this public? This is not a right/left thing either... we should have been equally as happy if Trump was caught with his pants down prior to the election, so we can actually vote on the truth and reality, not the facade that they put on. No one I know is arguing that, and I know a ton of liberals. I think one can be both happy to have learned exactly how fucking corrupt the DNC is while being unhappy at the thought of the Russians systematically trying to influence our election. Those aren't mutually exclusive opinions. If the leaked information was false, then you may have a point. Since the emails were true, and they also hacked the RNC (but didn't find anything worth reporting), I would argue against your systematic claim. Can you with a straight face argue that these leaked emails had more influence on our election than the entire media world pounding away at Donald Trump for being a racist, sexist, rapist and corrupt bigot (all claims are unfounded) for over a year? Leading up to the election, every single day there were new stories attacking Trump's character, business success, dealings with minorities, associations with women, and everything else. Well, it turns out that all of those claims were false... yet they made them the central part of the election. There is no way that that false reporting and story telling didn't have a greater influence on the election.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2017 12:45:46 GMT -5
They might not be mutually exclusive options, but they have significantly different implications. I take the position that I've heard several others take as well. If the DNC weren't so corrupt in the first place, the Russians wouldn't have had jack shit to use as ammo for their attempted influencing. But the DNC gave them the ability via being both corrupt AND inept enough to have their corruption completely exposed. Sure, it bothers me a little bit that some foreign power was able to infiltrate such a powerful organization in our nation's political sphere. But what that powerful organization's top people were doing bothers me A LOT. We still have zero proof it was the Russians. We have an admission from Asange who leaked the KEY info that it wasn't the Russians. So at best, the snowflakes can't even be confident their argument even has legs. I agree completely. I was coming from the "ok let's say it WAS the Russians who hacked the DNC" line of thinking. My own line of thinking is that the person responsible for the leaks was shot in the back, in a nice neighborhood in DC, last year.
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Post by ocmmafan on Jan 9, 2017 13:51:20 GMT -5
We still have zero proof it was the Russians. We have an admission from Asange who leaked the KEY info that it wasn't the Russians. So at best, the snowflakes can't even be confident their argument even has legs. I agree completely. I was coming from the "ok let's say it WAS the Russians who hacked the DNC" line of thinking. My own line of thinking is that the person responsible for the leaks was shot in the back, in a nice neighborhood in DC, last year. Yeah, that got too little coverage. Was he mugged as the official story? That was crazy. Like straight out of House of Cards crazy so we don't want to truly examine it.
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Post by Baph on Jan 9, 2017 13:56:36 GMT -5
Off topic, sorry, but remember when I said this like . . . 2+ years ago? There's no way this was random.
They were doing black ops shit in Benghazi, the locals knew it, targeted it, and we let our guys burn in order to keep it quiet, we rejected their requests for additional security in order to keep it quiet, and we lied about what happened there to keep it quiet, drumming-up this goofball YouTube video theory and got on TV and peddled this lie over and over because, what difference does it make?
Breaking: sources confirmed that the Obama Administration ran guns from Benghazi to Syria before the attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi on September 11, 2012 that killed Ambassador Chris Stevens and 3 other Americans.
The report reveals that U.S. Intelligence agencies were fully aware that weapons were moving from the terrorist stronghold in Libya to Syria before the attack that killed four Americans. It also ties the attack to the 9-11 terrorist attacks, and puts to rest the Obama/Clinton narrative that the attack was a "spontaneous demonstration caused by a YouTube video."
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Post by Baph on Jan 9, 2017 14:10:47 GMT -5
Everyone . . . EVERYONE . . . tires hard, in all sorts of legal and illegal ways, to influence the elections. The super delegates and the primary voting. Saudis pumping tens of millions into Clinton coffers. Media elites feeding her questions days in advance. Keeping Johnson out of debates. China hacking anything they can get their hands on. DNC working to undermine Sanders with scheduling events and media coverage. Busing thousands of voters around from precinct to precinct to vote multiple times in key electoral regions. Digging up decades old hot mic clips and fake sexual assault claims to be released at strategic times. Professional protesters being convoyed in to events with pre-made signs and instructions to cause havoc. Half the shit we've seen over the past two years has been staged. It's a fucking circus. 90% of the shit I just listed is illegal and wildly inappropriate and we know, for a fact, that it happened and almost certainly has happened for elections going back to the dawn of time. Of course Russia has a hand in it, but it's a crowded room in here in the election influencing building. Real crowded. The whole goddamned thing is smoke and mirrors, media manipulation, outright propaganda, and foreign and domestic influence at peak operating capacity trying to influence the power structure and proximity to decision makers for the next four years. In fact, I would bet you a steak dinner that there were dozens of hacks, internal and external, targeting all levels of this thing in order to gain leverage, intel, or blackmail on future administrations. But the rule that fits best with all these moving parts is always Ockham's . . . a high level staffer saw how the sausage was made and decided to shine some light on this disgusting shit show. Whoever did it: thank you. Keep up the good work.
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Post by Angelo on Jan 9, 2017 15:42:39 GMT -5
1st off Fiat wasn't because of Trump, they had plans to open a plant here for awhile now.
2nd off, Besides Kerry and the NSA basically alluding to it not being Russia as a state party being behind the hacks.... is nobody pointing out that Russia, specifically Putin, would have benefited more with Hillary in office than Trump? She was the one that was doing business with him and his associates, while Trump was working with his competitors over there.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2017 16:52:26 GMT -5
The fact that this kind of thing gets swept under the rug, however they are going to charge and convict Russia in the public court of opinion is mind blowing to me. This aid still had all of his money, cell phone, watch and nice shoes on... yet it was a robbery, case closed!!!
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Post by jamesod on Jan 9, 2017 18:21:52 GMT -5
No one I know is arguing that, and I know a ton of liberals. I think one can be both happy to have learned exactly how fucking corrupt the DNC is while being unhappy at the thought of the Russians systematically trying to influence our election. Those aren't mutually exclusive opinions. I shouldn't have to tell a lawyer this, but there's no evidence to your claims. Um, to which of my claims are you referring? That nobody I know is making the argument that "they would rather have the information that was leaked remain private and all of us played like pawns?" Ummm. Correct. I didn't call every liberal I know as a witness and I didn't elicit sworn testimony from them. I didn't realize that was the standard for posting one's thoughts on a freaking mixed martial arts message board. Or the claim that "one can be both happy to have learned exactly how fucking corrupt the DNC is while being unhappy at the thought of the Russians systematically trying to influence our election"? I suppose that's subject to empirical evidence as well and I could have called a witness on that too, but I was picturing it as more of a thought experiment. Like, can't a reasonable person see, by just pondering the issue, that one could hold both those views simultaneously? Or were you attributing some claim to me that I didn't make, such as a claim that, unquestionably, Russia was behind the hacking of and releasing of DNC emails. In which case I agree with you again - I presented no evidence supporting that claim that I didn't make. I got into this discussion solely to address Cyber's point, which was that assuming there was a Russian hack of the DNC servers, that hack showed incompetence by the Obama Administration as re: cyber security. I pointed out that the Obama Administration does not control the DNC servers and thus would have no responsibility for protecting the DNC from such a hack. Cyber's post, to which I responded, assumed the existence of a hack to make his point about Obama's incompetence. My response just continued that assumption.
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Post by jamesod on Jan 9, 2017 18:39:10 GMT -5
No one I know is arguing that, and I know a ton of liberals. I think one can be both happy to have learned exactly how fucking corrupt the DNC is while being unhappy at the thought of the Russians systematically trying to influence our election. Those aren't mutually exclusive opinions. If the leaked information was false, then you may have a point. Since the emails were true, and they also hacked the RNC (but didn't find anything worth reporting), I would argue against your systematic claim. Can you with a straight face argue that these leaked emails had more influence on our election than the entire media world pounding away at Donald Trump for being a racist, sexist, rapist and corrupt bigot (all claims are unfounded) for over a year? Leading up to the election, every single day there were new stories attacking Trump's character, business success, dealings with minorities, associations with women, and everything else. Well, it turns out that all of those claims were false... yet they made them the central part of the election. There is no way that that false reporting and story telling didn't have a greater influence on the election. I'm not sure I understand at all what you're saying. You're saying I'm wrong in thinking that "it's possible to be both happy to have learned of the massive DNC corruption and unhappy at the thought of the Russians systematically trying to influence our election"? You really can't imagine someone having both of those opinions? Really? Let's say the following went down. Burglars came into your company in the middle of the night and stole some stuff, including some financial documents from your accountant's office, which documents show he's embezzling from you. They happen to have a personal grudge against your accountant so after burglarizing your company, they send you copies of these documents, which conclusively prove the embezzlement. Can't you imagine being happy you know the truth about your accountant while, at the same time, being unhappy there were fucking burglars in your company? If not, I don't know that I can explain it any better.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2017 19:07:29 GMT -5
Hasn't the official report all but confirmed from numerous intelligence agencies that Russia at least played a part in the DNC hacks? I think even Trump has said he accepts that Russia probably did play a part but that it wouldn't have changed the election results.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2017 19:59:58 GMT -5
If the leaked information was false, then you may have a point. Since the emails were true, and they also hacked the RNC (but didn't find anything worth reporting), I would argue against your systematic claim. Can you with a straight face argue that these leaked emails had more influence on our election than the entire media world pounding away at Donald Trump for being a racist, sexist, rapist and corrupt bigot (all claims are unfounded) for over a year? Leading up to the election, every single day there were new stories attacking Trump's character, business success, dealings with minorities, associations with women, and everything else. Well, it turns out that all of those claims were false... yet they made them the central part of the election. There is no way that that false reporting and story telling didn't have a greater influence on the election. I'm not sure I understand at all what you're saying. You're saying I'm wrong in thinking that "it's possible to be both happy to have learned of the massive DNC corruption and unhappy at the thought of the Russians systematically trying to influence our election"? You really can't imagine someone having both of those opinions? Really? Let's say the following went down. Burglars came into your company in the middle of the night and stole some stuff, including some financial documents from your accountant's office, which documents show he's embezzling from you. They happen to have a personal grudge against your accountant so after burglarizing your company, they send you copies of these documents, which conclusively prove the embezzlement. Can't you imagine being happy you know the truth about your accountant while, at the same time, being unhappy there were fucking burglars in your company? If not, I don't know that I can explain it any better. You missed what I was saying... 1) They hacked the RNC but didn't find anything corrupt so they had nothing to leak. You said they systematically were sabotaging HRC. If that's the case why would they have hacked the RNC? 2) I am also arguing that people are whining that this leaked truth influenced the election and swayed votes towards DJT... however I would say that the insane media bias and constant pushing of stories about DJT that proved to be false, greatly eclipsed the number of votes that the hacked emails may have swayed.
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Post by Angelo on Jan 9, 2017 20:11:28 GMT -5
Hasn't the official report all but confirmed from numerous intelligence agencies that Russia at least played a part in the DNC hacks? I think even Trump has said he accepts that Russia probably did play a part but that it wouldn't have changed the election results. Not quite. They showed that Russian tech was used in various probes of DNC and various government servers. However the DNC "hack" that leaked the e-mails, there has been no link that it was Russian or even taken from the servers in via a breach from outside. Looks more like someone who worked at the DNC and had access collected all the data and leaked it. Also in regards to the server probing, the NSA has yet to confirm anything, only the FBI (which they then backtracked on somewhat) showed Russian link to anything and it wasn't even a link to Russia as a state party being involved. It was the equivalent of saying because someone snapped and drove through a crowd in NYC, and they don't catch the guy but know he drove a Fiat, that it was the Italian government that carried out the attack.
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Post by CaveBearOG on Jan 9, 2017 21:57:47 GMT -5
If it happened and I think it did, nothing changes. Fuck technology, I'd rather hang Chad.
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Post by TitoOrtizIsAPunk on Jan 9, 2017 23:28:45 GMT -5
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Post by Baph on Jan 10, 2017 2:03:51 GMT -5
Game. Set. Match.
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Post by mmaphreak on Jan 10, 2017 10:44:46 GMT -5
1st off Fiat wasn't because of Trump, they had plans to open a plant here for awhile now. 2nd off, Besides Kerry and the NSA basically alluding to it not being Russia as a state party being behind the hacks.... is nobody pointing out that Russia, specifically Putin, would have benefited more with Hillary in office than Trump? She was the one that was doing business with him and his associates, while Trump was working with his competitors over there.
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Post by ocmmafan on Jan 10, 2017 11:18:16 GMT -5
If the leaked information was false, then you may have a point. Since the emails were true, and they also hacked the RNC (but didn't find anything worth reporting), I would argue against your systematic claim. Can you with a straight face argue that these leaked emails had more influence on our election than the entire media world pounding away at Donald Trump for being a racist, sexist, rapist and corrupt bigot (all claims are unfounded) for over a year? Leading up to the election, every single day there were new stories attacking Trump's character, business success, dealings with minorities, associations with women, and everything else. Well, it turns out that all of those claims were false... yet they made them the central part of the election. There is no way that that false reporting and story telling didn't have a greater influence on the election. I'm not sure I understand at all what you're saying. You're saying I'm wrong in thinking that "it's possible to be both happy to have learned of the massive DNC corruption and unhappy at the thought of the Russians systematically trying to influence our election"? You really can't imagine someone having both of those opinions? Really? Let's say the following went down. Burglars came into your company in the middle of the night and stole some stuff, including some financial documents from your accountant's office, which documents show he's embezzling from you. They happen to have a personal grudge against your accountant so after burglarizing your company, they send you copies of these documents, which conclusively prove the embezzlement. Can't you imagine being happy you know the truth about your accountant while, at the same time, being unhappy there were fucking burglars in your company? If not, I don't know that I can explain it any better. You're giving half the story. What went down is there were TWO accounting companies and burglars broke into both and had grudges against both. In one, they found massive child porn and in the other they found nothing. One company didn't bother to whine about the intrusion and if they did, it fell on deaf ears. The other company, the one with child porn everywhere, first tried to deny the porn and when faced with overwhelming proof they could no longer lie about, they instead blamed the burglars (but it should also be known the doors were not locked and the company had the doors propped open). Lastly, the MOST FAMOUS burglar of all time admitted he is the one that broke in but the same company wants to ignore his admission and blame it on someone else. No where to run and no where to hide. No excuses to make and no one to blame. They are brazen but shitty criminals and conspirators and they got caught with their pants down. At this point anyone can say Asange is lying and it was the Russians, but the response is always going to be "so what". Their is no response to the "so what".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 13:19:59 GMT -5
Wait a sec...the kiddie porn thing...where is there evidence of this?
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Post by slaytan on Jan 10, 2017 13:20:45 GMT -5
Is anyone arguing that they would rather have the information that was leaked remain private and all of us played like pawns? Why are we not happy that corrupt politicians were exposed as the deviant assholes that we always knew they were? Why are we debating who/what/why, when we should be applauding the person/group that made this public? This is not a right/left thing either... we should have been equally as happy if Trump was caught with his pants down prior to the election, so we can actually vote on the truth and reality, not the facade that they put on. No one I know is arguing that, and I know a ton of liberals. I think one can be both happy to have learned exactly how fucking corrupt the DNC is while being unhappy at the thought of the Russians systematically trying to influence our election. Those aren't mutually exclusive opinions. IMO it is important to consider that the mainstream media has a perfect 100 year record of misreporting on Russia. If they say it's not Russia, it is. And vice versa. They have never once failed to be wrong. There are famous pulitzer prizes awarded specifically for lying about Russia (Walter Duranty). It's more likely that this whole "Russia meddled in the election for Trump" was cooked up by Russia, because they got their hands very dirty trying to help Hillary. They're trying to build a pattern on the republican side of saying "Russian interference doesn't matter" and hoping that Repubs won't want to dig too deep. The thing is, is that there has been russian meddling in every election since at least FDR, and at least one president (FDR again), has been proven to have been under near-complete (to complete) control of Russia. Could be that the whole "Russia rigged election for Trump" is meant as a rabbit to chase, to make it seem counter intuitive that the DNC is actually still Russia's puppet. You have John Kerry (traitor to USSR) as secretary of State, and the Clintons, who (like Bernie Sanders) spent a mysterious part of their early 20's in the USSR. You have Ted Kennedy, who contacted the KGB directly offering to coordinate efforts with Russia to subvert Reagan. You have Jimmy Carter, whose behavior as president fits no pattern except one of a mole.
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Post by ocmmafan on Jan 10, 2017 15:55:10 GMT -5
Wait a sec...the kiddie porn thing...where is there evidence of this? No, I was just making the crime analogy a much more serious one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 17:52:26 GMT -5
Wait a sec...the kiddie porn thing...where is there evidence of this? No, I was just making the crime analogy a much more serious one. I thought I had missed something and if you had posted something that showed it did happen...I was warming up the multiple text message that was going to be sent to my democratic friends lol.
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Post by PatSox on Jan 11, 2017 9:57:55 GMT -5
I'm not sure I understand at all what you're saying. You're saying I'm wrong in thinking that "it's possible to be both happy to have learned of the massive DNC corruption and unhappy at the thought of the Russians systematically trying to influence our election"? You really can't imagine someone having both of those opinions? Really? Let's say the following went down. Burglars came into your company in the middle of the night and stole some stuff, including some financial documents from your accountant's office, which documents show he's embezzling from you. They happen to have a personal grudge against your accountant so after burglarizing your company, they send you copies of these documents, which conclusively prove the embezzlement. Can't you imagine being happy you know the truth about your accountant while, at the same time, being unhappy there were fucking burglars in your company? If not, I don't know that I can explain it any better. 1) They hacked the RNC but didn't find anything corrupt so they had nothing to leak. Or they did get something and are now holding those things over their heads as a means to get favorable decisions that benefit Russia, from the now Republican controlled branches of government I mean is that so hard to believe? I know it's what I would do, if I were Russia. Use what you have to hurt the side that's on the way out and control the one that's ending up on top
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 10:21:09 GMT -5
1) They hacked the RNC but didn't find anything corrupt so they had nothing to leak. Or they did get something and are now holding those things over their heads as a means to get favorable decisions that benefit Russia, from the now Republican controlled branches of government I mean is that so hard to believe? I know it's what I would do, if I were Russia. Use what you have to hurt the side that's on the way out and control the one that's ending up on top That would be a dumb move if that was their plan. There is no way they could have predicted a less than 1% margin of victory in 3 swing states, so why have all of your eggs in one basket (especially the one that had to pull off a big upset)? Why not hack both, collect the information, then blackmail the winner? You are guaranteed to come out on the winning side that way.
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