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Post by MMAJim on Jan 21, 2020 12:16:49 GMT -5
Jumping around topics now. What do we think about Tony vs Connor?
I still like Tony in that matchup, but how Connor looked at 170 size-wise this time around has me thinking a little more. If Tony does win, and does get the Connor fight, it could be pretty interesting. If Tony started to get rolling, especially later in a fight against Connor, it could get a little more brutal than getting choked/tapped out. Ferguson seems to have a way of battering his opposition.
On the Connor side of things, as always, he has the power to alter the course of a fight at almost any time. I'd have to go back and review how much fire Tony has absorbed and walked through in some of his past fights.
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Post by johncfc on Jan 22, 2020 16:28:03 GMT -5
Jumping around topics now. What do we think about Tony vs Connor? I still like Tony in that matchup, but how Connor looked at 170 size-wise this time around has me thinking a little more. If Tony does win, and does get the Connor fight, it could be pretty interesting. If Tony started to get rolling, especially later in a fight against Connor, it could get a little more brutal than getting choked/tapped out. Ferguson seems to have a way of battering his opposition. On the Connor side of things, as always, he has the power to alter the course of a fight at almost any time. I'd have to go back and review how much fire Tony has absorbed and walked through in some of his past fights. I’d pick Tony as well, as I think he could absorb the damage in the first couple rounds and then get a finish. Like all his fights, if Conor is in shape and motivated he could get the early finish. I’d much rather see this fight than a rematch with Khabib. Would be fireworks.
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mmadoc
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Post by mmadoc on Jan 23, 2020 21:20:03 GMT -5
at 155: Justin at 170: Wonderboy, Tony, Masvidal, Tyron , Nate, Maia, Covington (interesting pressers), all would be much, much better fights than Cowboy. No way he should get a title shot in any division
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Post by jamesod on Jan 24, 2020 7:24:43 GMT -5
Hey Gary... Any thoughts on the doc (I'm assuming it wasn't you) who made the mid-fight diagnosis on Maycee Barber? First, the calling him into the cage to look at the knee? Second, the on-the-fly diagnosis itself?
I know you're not one to throw too much criticism at another doc in the business but just curious if you had any thoughts you'd be willing to share.
Thanks!
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Post by jamesod on Jan 24, 2020 7:52:36 GMT -5
Cowboy looked like he showed up to get paid and was happy with that. Connor looked great. But I don't really see him winning against the best of the best at WW or LW. Plenty of fun fights for him, but the days of the belts are long gone.* *barring the UFC pulling some shenanigans to make Connor/Nate 3 for an interim belt or something stupid like that. Cowboy got his nose and orbital broken in those 40 seconds. People are really underestimating what Conor was able to do with those shoulder strikes. As to Conor not winning against the best of the best at WW or LW... I think he's a favorite against every LW except Khabib. At worst I'd see him being even money against Tony. Favored against everyone else. I think he's a favorite against about half of the top ten WWs. I don't think he beats Usman or Woodley. Probably not Colby. Slight dog against Masvidal. Maybe even money against Wonderboy and Leon Edwards? Favored against RDA, Lawler, Nate, and Maia? Conor is a legit GREAT mma fighter. I rooted against him when he fought Nate and Khabib and Cowboy. I'm not a superfan by any means. But I think because he talks so much shit and has so many casuals as big fans of his, people underestimate how good he really is.
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Post by johncfc on Jan 24, 2020 9:43:45 GMT -5
I differ slightly with your predictions. I have Tony as a favourite against Conor and I would have Gaethje (sp?) and Conor at about even. I would also likely have Jorge as a slightly bigger favourite than you.
However, that doesn’t change the fact I don’t underrate Conor at all. He’s an amazing fighter and one of my favourites, especially to watch in the cage.
Conor also finishes fights like few others. Apart from the Nate fights and Khabib, he has demolished most of his other opponents. His finishing power, precision and instinct reminds me of Anderson.
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Post by jamesod on Jan 24, 2020 10:14:41 GMT -5
I would like to bet you even money - I'll take Conor, you take Gaethje - if that ever happens. $100? Book it now, before any oddsmakers release odds? I have not looked for or seen any odds on that fight. Maybe I'm underestimating Justin. But I think Conor's precision and power beats Justin's chin and power.
I think Tony/Conor would be an amazing fight. Possibly fight of the decade kind of fight if it goes a few rounds. I think both those guys are just monsters. That fight would be ridiculously hard to predict.
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Post by johncfc on Jan 24, 2020 10:59:46 GMT -5
I would like to bet you even money - I'll take Conor, you take Gaethje - if that ever happens. $100? Book it now, before any oddsmakers release odds? I have not looked for or seen any odds on that fight. Maybe I'm underestimating Justin. But I think Conor's precision and power beats Justin's chin and power. I think Tony/Conor would be an amazing fight. Possibly fight of the decade kind of fight if it goes a few rounds. I think both those guys are just monsters. That fight would be ridiculously hard to predict. Hmmm, kind of difficult for me to take that bet because I would be pulling for Conor. I do think Justin has an even chance though. He is a great wrestler and with the right/smart game plan he could win. I really hope Tony beats Khabib to set up a fight with Conor.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Jan 24, 2020 14:03:05 GMT -5
Cowboy looked like he showed up to get paid and was happy with that. Connor looked great. But I don't really see him winning against the best of the best at WW or LW. Plenty of fun fights for him, but the days of the belts are long gone.* *barring the UFC pulling some shenanigans to make Connor/Nate 3 for an interim belt or something stupid like that. Cowboy got his nose and orbital broken in those 40 seconds. People are really underestimating what Conor was able to do with those shoulder strikes. As to Conor not winning against the best of the best at WW or LW... I think he's a favorite against every LW except Khabib. At worst I'd see him being even money against Tony. Favored against everyone else. I think he's a favorite against about half of the top ten WWs. I don't think he beats Usman or Woodley. Probably not Colby. Slight dog against Masvidal. Maybe even money against Wonderboy and Leon Edwards? Favored against RDA, Lawler, Nate, and Maia? Conor is a legit GREAT mma fighter. I rooted against him when he fought Nate and Khabib and Cowboy. I'm not a superfan by any means. But I think because he talks so much shit and has so many casuals as big fans of his, people underestimate how good he really is. I don't doubt that Connor fucked him up with those shoulder strikes. But that also doesn't take away from the fact that Cowboy had the patented cowboy 'deer in headlights' big fight look when the bell rang. I don't think Connor is bad and can't beat anyone. But he's not winning a belt anytime soon. That's my point. There is a 0.0% he ever beats Khabib. I don't care what anyone says about him being sober or whatever, it ain't happening. Same goes for the top of WW with Usman and Woodley. Plenty of good fights for him though. Not winning a title doesn't make you unmarketable obviously. But to contend that he's still elite top of the food chain when he clearly can't beat the top guys, makes it a silly argument.
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Post by johncfc on Jan 24, 2020 14:14:21 GMT -5
Cowboy got his nose and orbital broken in those 40 seconds. People are really underestimating what Conor was able to do with those shoulder strikes. As to Conor not winning against the best of the best at WW or LW... I think he's a favorite against every LW except Khabib. At worst I'd see him being even money against Tony. Favored against everyone else. I think he's a favorite against about half of the top ten WWs. I don't think he beats Usman or Woodley. Probably not Colby. Slight dog against Masvidal. Maybe even money against Wonderboy and Leon Edwards? Favored against RDA, Lawler, Nate, and Maia? Conor is a legit GREAT mma fighter. I rooted against him when he fought Nate and Khabib and Cowboy. I'm not a superfan by any means. But I think because he talks so much shit and has so many casuals as big fans of his, people underestimate how good he really is. I don't doubt that Connor fucked him up with those shoulder strikes. But that also doesn't take away from the fact that Cowboy had the patented cowboy 'deer in headlights' big fight look when the bell rang. I don't think Connor is bad and can't beat anyone. But he's not winning a belt anytime soon. That's my point. There is a 0.0% he ever beats Khabib. I don't care what anyone says about him being sober or whatever, it ain't happening. Same goes for the top of WW with Usman and Woodley. Plenty of good fights for him though. Not winning a title doesn't make you unmarketable obviously. But to contend that he's still elite top of the food chain when he clearly can't beat the top guys, makes it a silly argument. Other than Khabib, who I agree he likely never beats, who can’t he beat at LW? I favour Tony in a fight with Conor, but would give Conor a legit shot.
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mmadoc
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Post by mmadoc on Jan 24, 2020 17:41:56 GMT -5
Hey Gary... Any thoughts on the doc (I'm assuming it wasn't you) who made the mid-fight diagnosis on Maycee Barber? First, the calling him into the cage to look at the knee? Second, the on-the-fly diagnosis itself? I know you're not one to throw too much criticism at another doc in the business but just curious if you had any thoughts you'd be willing to share. Thanks!
Typically you are called in to say" Yes they can fight," or " no they have to stop" Unless the doc had checked her earlier, and noticed zero ACL laxity, you really could not make that diagnosis, other than a guess.
I have asked a few times to make a diagnosis about a fighters injury, after a bout, but other than letting the athlete, coach, CSAC know, i would never furnish that information (no, not because i am scared to be wrong to the public.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Jan 24, 2020 17:47:56 GMT -5
I don't doubt that Connor fucked him up with those shoulder strikes. But that also doesn't take away from the fact that Cowboy had the patented cowboy 'deer in headlights' big fight look when the bell rang. I don't think Connor is bad and can't beat anyone. But he's not winning a belt anytime soon. That's my point. There is a 0.0% he ever beats Khabib. I don't care what anyone says about him being sober or whatever, it ain't happening. Same goes for the top of WW with Usman and Woodley. Plenty of good fights for him though. Not winning a title doesn't make you unmarketable obviously. But to contend that he's still elite top of the food chain when he clearly can't beat the top guys, makes it a silly argument. Other than Khabib, who I agree he likely never beats, who can’t he beat at LW? I favour Tony in a fight with Conor, but would give Conor a legit shot. I don't think Connor has much more than a puncher's chance against (Not Holloway) Ferguson. I am also of the opinion that Justin G would KO Connor, but that ones not as 'for sure' in my mind. So basically outside of the clear top 2 at LW and WW, there are a lot of fun competitive fights that he'd probably be favored in and have at least a decent shot of winning. Tough putt to win a belt when that's the case though. If we're being honest, it kinda puts him in "super good, super popular, but still gatekeeper" territory.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Jan 24, 2020 17:50:48 GMT -5
Hey Gary... Any thoughts on the doc (I'm assuming it wasn't you) who made the mid-fight diagnosis on Maycee Barber? First, the calling him into the cage to look at the knee? Second, the on-the-fly diagnosis itself? I know you're not one to throw too much criticism at another doc in the business but just curious if you had any thoughts you'd be willing to share. Thanks!
Typically you are called in to say" Yes they can fight," or " no they have to stop" Unless the doc had checked her earlier, and noticed zero ACL laxity, you really could not make that diagnosis, other than a guess.
I have asked a few times to make a diagnosis about a fighters injury, after a bout, but other than letting the athlete, coach, CSAC know, i would never furnish that information (no, not because i am scared to be wrong to the public.
This was my first thought when I heard the cageside doctor 'diagnosed' a torn ACL. I mean NFL has training rooms, teams of in house doctors, etc and they won't even say 'ACL', despite it looking pretty obvious until they have an MRI to look at. Thanks for the insight on that one because I was definitely caught off guard.
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Post by HumanAgent on Jan 24, 2020 18:12:08 GMT -5
Conor +230 Khabib -320
Conor +145 Jorge -165
Conor -115 Justin -115 (although before the Cowboy fight Justin was -130 I belive)
Conor -250 Nate +175
No odds for Conor/Tony anywhere. Conor was very methotical in his fight with Cowboy. He had to get a fight that would get him in the win column. Stylistically, Cowboy made sence. Why he avoided Justin, which really made more sence. Cowboy had lost two in a row, why not fight the guy that just KOed Cowboy? Well, we know why.
I think Tony wins. Dana already salavating the rematch but when do things go as planed?
Khabib fights once or twice a year... I hope he losses vs Tony. Especially wurh him talking about boxing Floyd. I'd these fuckers wanted to box so bad, why didn't they become boxers. Floyd just making millions boxing UFC guys while him avoiding real competition as well, Conor has learned well from Floyd.
As far as availability Jorge or Justin make sence... Conor will probably pick Aldo or Frankie Edgar though lol
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Post by johncfc on Jan 24, 2020 18:35:37 GMT -5
Other than Khabib, who I agree he likely never beats, who can’t he beat at LW? I favour Tony in a fight with Conor, but would give Conor a legit shot. I don't think Connor has much more than a puncher's chance against Holloway. I am also of the opinion that Justin G would KO Connor, but that ones not as 'for sure' in my mind. So basically outside of the clear top 2 at LW and WW, there are a lot of fun competitive fights that he'd probably be favored in and have at least a decent shot of winning. Tough putt to win a belt when that's the case though. If we're being honest, it kinda puts him in "super good, super popular, but still gatekeeper" territory. I think Conor beats Max again, especially at LW. Max’s only fight at LW is a loss to Dustin, who Conor has also already beat. I really like Max, it I think the wars have caught up to him and he is on a major decline. It’s too early in Conor’s comeback for me to call him a gatekeeper. I want to see who he fights next and how motivated he is before labelling him that.
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Post by andrewk1988 on Jan 24, 2020 18:42:31 GMT -5
I don't think Connor has much more than a puncher's chance against Holloway. I am also of the opinion that Justin G would KO Connor, but that ones not as 'for sure' in my mind. So basically outside of the clear top 2 at LW and WW, there are a lot of fun competitive fights that he'd probably be favored in and have at least a decent shot of winning. Tough putt to win a belt when that's the case though. If we're being honest, it kinda puts him in "super good, super popular, but still gatekeeper" territory. I think Conor beats Max again, especially at LW. Max’s only fight at LW is a loss to Dustin, who Conor has also already beat. I really like Max, it I think the wars have caught up to him and he is on a major decline. It’s too early in Conor’s comeback for me to call him a gatekeeper. I want to see who he fights next and how motivated he is before labelling him that. Sorry I meant Ferguson. I always confuse those two. I'm probably racist.
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Post by MMAJim on Jan 24, 2020 21:27:21 GMT -5
Hey Gary... Any thoughts on the doc (I'm assuming it wasn't you) who made the mid-fight diagnosis on Maycee Barber? First, the calling him into the cage to look at the knee? Second, the on-the-fly diagnosis itself? I know you're not one to throw too much criticism at another doc in the business but just curious if you had any thoughts you'd be willing to share. Thanks!
Typically you are called in to say" Yes they can fight," or " no they have to stop" Unless the doc had checked her earlier, and noticed zero ACL laxity, you really could not make that diagnosis, other than a guess.
I have asked a few times to make a diagnosis about a fighters injury, after a bout, but other than letting the athlete, coach, CSAC know, i would never furnish that information (no, not because i am scared to be wrong to the public.
I’m obviously not an MMADoc but I do have a Kinesiology degree and a once torn ACL. Probably not remembering the name correctly but isn’t a Lachlan-Drawer test pretty definitive? I didn’t see if they did that on Maycee. Athlete’s musculature if anything would mask an ACL year so if they get a pretty strong indication from a quick Lachlan-Drawer couldn’t they make a fairly confident preliminary diagnosis? I guess that is maybe more appropriate for an internal discussion with fighter/trainer/coach vs public or official diagnosis.
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Post by jamesod on Jan 25, 2020 13:30:34 GMT -5
I would like to bet you even money - I'll take Conor, you take Gaethje - if that ever happens. $100? Book it now, before any oddsmakers release odds? I have not looked for or seen any odds on that fight. Maybe I'm underestimating Justin. But I think Conor's precision and power beats Justin's chin and power. I think Tony/Conor would be an amazing fight. Possibly fight of the decade kind of fight if it goes a few rounds. I think both those guys are just monsters. That fight would be ridiculously hard to predict. Hmmm, kind of difficult for me to take that bet because I would be pulling for Conor. I do think Justin has an even chance though. He is a great wrestler and with the right/smart game plan he could win. I really hope Tony beats Khabib to set up a fight with Conor. If you don't have $100, you can just say so. Nobody is going to judge you.
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Post by johncfc on Jan 25, 2020 14:19:50 GMT -5
Hmmm, kind of difficult for me to take that bet because I would be pulling for Conor. I do think Justin has an even chance though. He is a great wrestler and with the right/smart game plan he could win. I really hope Tony beats Khabib to set up a fight with Conor. If you don't have $100, you can just say so. Nobody is going to judge you. Who said I don’t have $100? Wait, is it $100 American or Canadian?
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Post by jamesod on Jan 26, 2020 10:40:47 GMT -5
If I was talking about fucking loonies and toonies, I'd have made that clear.
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Post by jamesod on Jan 26, 2020 10:53:38 GMT -5
I would like to bet you even money - I'll take Conor, you take Gaethje - if that ever happens. $100? Book it now, before any oddsmakers release odds? I have not looked for or seen any odds on that fight. Maybe I'm underestimating Justin. But I think Conor's precision and power beats Justin's chin and power. I think Tony/Conor would be an amazing fight. Possibly fight of the decade kind of fight if it goes a few rounds. I think both those guys are just monsters. That fight would be ridiculously hard to predict. Hmmm, kind of difficult for me to take that bet because I would be pulling for Conor. I do think Justin has an even chance though. He is a great wrestler and with the right/smart game plan he could win. What makes you think wrestling is going to be all that relevant to this fight? Do you see either fighter going for a takedown? Connor averages less than a takedown per 15 min. Gaethe has zero takedowns total in the UFC. I will grant you Gaethe is likely a better wrestler than Conor (although Conor is surprisingly good - Khabib, Alvarez, and Mendes all had limited to no success taking him down). But... so what?
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Post by johncfc on Jan 26, 2020 16:34:27 GMT -5
Hmmm, kind of difficult for me to take that bet because I would be pulling for Conor. I do think Justin has an even chance though. He is a great wrestler and with the right/smart game plan he could win. What makes you think wrestling is going to be all that relevant to this fight? Do you see either fighter going for a takedown? Connor averages less than a takedown per 15 min. Gaethe has zero takedowns total in the UFC. I will grant you Gaethe is likely a better wrestler than Conor (although Conor is surprisingly good - Khabib, Alvarez, and Mendes all had limited to no success taking him down). But... so what? It’s hard to come up with a definitive game plan for Conor because he has few losses. If your name is Khabib, take him down at will, tire him out, then sub him. If your name is Diaz, let him punch himself out on your head for a couple rounds until he tires himself out, then sub him. A combination of both strategies makes sense to me. Go for takedowns, change levels, and hold him against the cage in the first couple rounds and hope he tires out and doesn’t get too much momentum. Would Justin, who is apparently a good wrestler, follow a game plan like this? Probably not. So that means one of them is likely getting KTFO within the first couple rounds. I’d say a fight like that favours Conor, but if it somehow lasts past a couple rounds, I’d favour Justin.
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Post by jamesod on Jan 26, 2020 17:14:46 GMT -5
What makes you think wrestling is going to be all that relevant to this fight? Do you see either fighter going for a takedown? Connor averages less than a takedown per 15 min. Gaethe has zero takedowns total in the UFC. I will grant you Gaethe is likely a better wrestler than Conor (although Conor is surprisingly good - Khabib, Alvarez, and Mendes all had limited to no success taking him down). But... so what? It’s hard to come up with a definitive game plan for Conor because he has few losses. If your name is Khabib, take him down at will, tire him out, then sub him. If your name is Diaz, let him punch himself out on your head for a couple rounds until he tires himself out, then sub him. A combination of both strategies makes sense to me. Go for takedowns, change levels, and hold him against the cage in the first couple rounds and hope he tires out and doesn’t get too much momentum. Would Justin, who is apparently a good wrestler, follow a game plan like this? Probably not. So that means one of them is likely getting KTFO within the first couple rounds. I’d say a fight like that favours Conor, but if it somehow lasts past a couple rounds, I’d favour Justin. Your analysis is stupid.
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Post by johncfc on Jan 26, 2020 17:42:25 GMT -5
It’s hard to come up with a definitive game plan for Conor because he has few losses. If your name is Khabib, take him down at will, tire him out, then sub him. If your name is Diaz, let him punch himself out on your head for a couple rounds until he tires himself out, then sub him. A combination of both strategies makes sense to me. Go for takedowns, change levels, and hold him against the cage in the first couple rounds and hope he tires out and doesn’t get too much momentum. Would Justin, who is apparently a good wrestler, follow a game plan like this? Probably not. So that means one of them is likely getting KTFO within the first couple rounds. I’d say a fight like that favours Conor, but if it somehow lasts past a couple rounds, I’d favour Justin. Your analysis is stupid. I’m basically the next Greg Jackson.
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mmadoc
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by mmadoc on Jan 27, 2020 21:51:47 GMT -5
think i messed up a post here, sorry about that
The Lachman test is the best for physical diagnosis of an ACL tear, but not easy to do, and would be really hard to do in a cage . The anterior drawer sign is easier, but not as sensitive or specific. There is the Lever test, which is in between the two, also would be hard in a cage. one of the key things though, is you really should have an idea of the other knee, and you would really need to know what the affected knee was like, pre injury. pretty bizarre situation.
I’m obviously not an MMADoc but I do have a Kinesiology degree and a once torn ACL. Probably not remembering the name correctly but isn’t a Lachlan-Drawer test pretty definitive? I didn’t see if they did that on Maycee. Athlete’s musculature if anything would mask an ACL year so if they get a pretty strong indication from a quick Lachlan-Drawer couldn’t they make a fairly confident preliminary diagnosis? I guess that is maybe more appropriate for an internal discussion with fighter/trainer/coach vs public or official diagnosis.The Lachman test is the most accurate , if positive (~95%)BUT you can only use that if you know what the knee exam was before. The test is not easy to do correctly, and i cannot imagine getting the proper thigh muscle relaxation during a fight. The Anterior drawer sign is easier to do, but not as predictive. The Lever test is in between for sensitivity and specificity. it was a weird scene, one i have never witnessed before.
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Post by MMAJim on Jan 31, 2020 9:49:59 GMT -5
I’m obviously not an MMADoc but I do have a Kinesiology degree and a once torn ACL. Probably not remembering the name correctly but isn’t a Lachlan-Drawer test pretty definitive? I didn’t see if they did that on Maycee. Athlete’s musculature if anything would mask an ACL year so if they get a pretty strong indication from a quick Lachlan-Drawer couldn’t they make a fairly confident preliminary diagnosis? I guess that is maybe more appropriate for an internal discussion with fighter/trainer/coach vs public or official diagnosis.The Lachman test is the most accurate , if positive (~95%)BUT you can only use that if you know what the knee exam was before. The test is not easy to do correctly, and i cannot imagine getting the proper thigh muscle relaxation during a fight. The Anterior drawer sign is easier to do, but not as predictive. The Lever test is in between for sensitivity and specificity. it was a weird scene, one i have never witnessed before. I guess I wasn't thinking about the right in cage part. Pretty quick indication post-fight might be more plausible for her trainer, pre-fight medical. I had a strong suspicion on my own before any tests. I knew just enough about them and it just felt loose when I picked up my leg and waggled it, looser than my other leg. I was lucky though, not much other damage, so not really much pain before surgery.
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